As Jeremy reported (as did Mark and William), world-renowned musician Tal Bachman left the church. Apparently, it has taken the former Sunday School teacher two years to come to this decision. Technically, he still is a member because he has yet to formally request name removal through a letter to his bishop.
Nevertheless, one thing in the article really caught my attention.
>I came to understand that, much to my shock, many of the foundational claims of the church were not based in reality. I struggled so much with that, and kept trying to un-know what I kept uncovering, that at the end of two years I felt so burdened and so confused and puzzled. I kept going to these church defenders that I’d always trusted and trying to find out what the explanations were for what appeared to be smoking guns. And there weren’t any.
Why is it historical accuracy is such a big issue for so many people who left the Church? Why do they put so much weight in the accuracy of events happening exactly as described?
These same people, for example, often have no problem accepting that the creation of the world did not happen in six 24-hour periods. However, when they’re faced with the fact that Joseph Smith allegedly wrote a couple dozen versions of the First Vision, all of a sudden it’s too much and the whole Church is a sham.
Sigh.
In all honesty, who cares? Who cares if the First Vision was with God and Jesus Christ or if it was three angels? The point is that the heavens that were closed for millennia were now open. The point is that the Lord opened the way for a church run by revelation. Who cares if the world was created in six days, six thousand years, or 4.5 billion years? The point is that it was created.
Some naysayers may read this post and say, “Who are you to question his decision? Who are you to be an expert on questioning doctrines when you’ve lived the sheltered life of Mormonism?” To such things, I respond by saying that my life has been far from sheltered. I have had my share of worldly indulgences. I have had my share of questions.
In fact, I came to the point where my faith was seriously shaken as well. You want to know the difference between my experience and others like Tal’s? When my faith wavered, it wasn’t because I read that Joseph Smith was a boozer or that Brigham Young was racist. It wasn’t because I found what appeared to be inconsistencies between the Book of Mormon and the Bible. It wasn’t because my bishop couldn’t answer my questions.
It was because I doubted God’s existence.
That’s right. It wasn’t my faith in a single book. It wasn’t faith in the character of a prophet. It wasn’t faith in the sociability of my home teachers. It was faith in God.
The point is when you question your faith, think about what you’re questioning. If you are offended by someone and decide to never come back to church, think about where your faith must lie. If you come across some abhorrent thing Joseph Smith did and decide to leave the Church, think about where your faith lies.
Think about where your faith lies.
It was a very hard and depressing experience I went through. However, I am very grateful for it. The experience has really solidified my faith and I have become stronger as a result. Because of this, odd events and doctrines that would normally offend or shake someone’s faith no longer phase me. I am now able to question things freely.
Think about where your faith lies.
Popularity: 16% [?]
“I guess I should fill in the back story a little bit [...] But I read a post that he had written in May 2007 that ended up being a WTF moment for me.”
Please “fill us in” what did he actually say?
And what makes you think that Mormons were his core audience and fan base? I’m not saying this couldn’t be true, but please, he was on the radio all over North America. (Even in the Blue States)
I would be surprised if even a small percentage of Mormons outside the intellectual circle even know who Tal Bachman is, let alone that they would have had enough influence either to sustain his music career while he was an active member or to cause it to tank after leaving the church. GIVE ME A BREAK.
It’s hard for any musician to transition from a one-hit wonder to pumping out hits, album after album. And if you think it’s easier for active Mormons to do it, then please fill us into why there aren’t any?
Tal Bachman is a pretty smart and likable guy. I have yet to hear or read anything that makes me think I wouldn’t enjoy hanging out with him.
One other thing, you mentioned that “There are post-Mormons with relevant helpful things to say”. I’d be interested to hear your advice on what exactly you would have Tal say that is relevant, helpful, and not to hubris as a post-mormon.
Hmmm…
I never thought the day would come when I would encounter a Tal Bachman apologist ;)
The particular words that ‘broke the camel’s back’ so to speak are posted on my blog, as well as a link to his orginial post.
Not all of Tal Bachman’s fans were Mormon, but I believe that Mormon consumers can influence the marketplace, especially when it comes to consuming goods produced by fellow Mormons. Alienating the Mormon sector would certainly not be particularly helpful to his music career at any rate.
By way of an aside, where is the post on Randy Bachman leaving to Mormon church and becoming ‘more spiritual’?
“By way of an aside, where is the post on Randy Bachman leaving to Mormon church and becoming ‘more spiritual’?”
I think you have him confused with Richard Dutcher.
There are several posts around the bloggernacle about Tal Bachman leaving the Mormon church, but not a single one about his dad, Randy, who is apparently no longer Mormon and claiming that his family is ‘more spiritual’.
Perhaps that’s because Randy never went public with it.
DPC, I just read your post on Tal Bachman, and you’ve got to be kidding me.
For the uninitiated:
An ad hominem argument, consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to an irrelevant characteristic about the person making the argument or claim.
Might I suggest the man living in a glass house not throw rocks?
Actually, no he doesn’t. Read it again if you are confused. Or are you referring to some other writing and haven’t let us know?
Why are you like that? Do you think people are basically horrible?
Really?
REALLY? I wonder if there is something wrong with me, because I missed any mention of his music in the post you linked.
Are you really that jaded? Your lack of comprehension befuddles me. If you accept the Mormon view of Hell as being a state of mind, then why is it such a leap to consider the possibility of Heaven in the same light?
Or maybe he actually is a rock star and knows what he’s talking about. If I had to guess, I’d predict that women are STILL all over him. Since I don’t know, I’ll just take his word for it.
I’ll let that one stand for itself.
You are one classy guy.
Seriously though, it appears the reason for the personal attacks is that Bachman makes compelling arguments, the likes of which you are unable to debate.
Jeff, are you Tal Bachman’s bitch or PR wag or something?
As a minor celebrity, Mr. Bachman should thank me for any publicity I bring him. Any publicity is good publicity after all (just ask Lindsay Lohan, Brittany Spears or Paris Hilton). For a celebrity, it is by far more preferable to have people say bad things about you than say nothing about you. Besides, if I threw down the gauntlet, then it’s for Mr. Bachman to pick it up. I’m sure that if he wants to, Mr. Bachman is more than able to defend himself without relying on you.
I think you missed the whole point of my rant on Tal Bachman. It was intended as sarcastic commentary and parody. My frustration with Mr. Bachman was the result of initially enjoying his writing and then, after reading a lot of what he said, becoming disillusioned with the overall paucity of anything even remotely resembling a valid or interesting insight into the human condition. The one post linked to on my blog just happened to be the one that made me realize what I had known all along: Mr. Bachman pretends to know more than he actually knows (or he knows more than he actually pretends to know, which is functionally equivalent). A lot of the techniques that I use in my rant are similar to the techniques the Mr. Bachman uses in his writing (from the condescending, holier-than-thou tone, to irrelevant ad hominem attacks), except that mine are more pronounced to enhance the overall comic effect (e.g. the disclaimer). If you missed that, I’m sorry, but jokes are always more funny when they don’t need to be explained.
Sorry dcp, I too missed any reference to parody in your posting, nor did I find much humour in it.
The post in question reads entirely like a soliloquy of sour grapes on your part.
Maybe that was not the intent, but perception is reality; in this case you just come off looking spurned and bitter.
“Maybe that was not the intent, but perception is reality; in this case you just come off looking spurned and bitter.”
Which is exactly how Tal Bachman sounds and led me to say the same question Jeff asks above “You’ve got to be kidding me”
“You’ve got to be kidding me”
And if you really were, then sorry, the humour was completely lost on me.
When you entered the fray you stated that Bachman was “not exactly smart”. When I called you on it, you referred us to a character defamation peice you wrote, attacking him on a personal level.
Again, please forgive me for missing the humour in this. There is probably something wrong with my sense of humour considering how sensitive I am with regard to the disappointment I feel about the church.
I empathized with the honesty and pain in Bachman’s writing and found your attacks petty and intellectually dishonest. You pretend that by admitting your argument is a fallacy that that makes it worthwhile. It does not.
You stated that, “there are post-Mormons with relevant helpful things to say; Mr. Bachman is not one of them.”
I ask again, what exactly you would have Tal say that is relevant, helpful, and not to hubris as a post-mormon. Or am I still missing the point that you’re not in here to add anything relevant, but merely to stir the pot?
P.S. when you refer to me as a bitch and/or PR wag, the humour continues to be lost on me.
Are we not all Gods Children? What would Jesus say to Tal or dpc for that matter? But if you really want to argue it’s not that amusing to watch the thread.
Jeff, if you have any more comments regarding this subject, please post them to my blog. If you want to read relevant, well-considered articles by Post-Mormons, I suggest you read equalitytime.blogspot.com and the blogs to which he links.
I gave the wrong http address. It should be http://equalitysblog.typepad.com/equality_time/
Sorry for any confusion
Tal was my Zone Leader for about five months of my mission. We performed in a Christmas pagent together, and he was a fun, creative and caring guy. After the mission, we attended BYU at the same time and he introduced me to his wife one day in the Joseph Smith building. During the release of his first album, I came to see him at Tower Records in BellevueM Washington and he autographed a CD for me and chatted about old times for a while. I knew his kids’ nanny in the Vancouver area, and he performed at a YSA conference I attended in Vancouver. I was profoundly saddened to hear he left the church, and I hope one day he finds his way back.
i don’t think you all understand the importance of historical evidence or accuracy in what joseph smith claimed. the fact was he claimed that important things were removed from the bible , he claimed he had them, and that he was a prophet. and that all other beliefs were false. the importance of historical data backing up a claim is huge. while the bible has 4,000 years of traceble history. no history teacher will deny.. from the eygptian culture to romans. we know that the lands in the bible are geographicaly sound they existed and still do today. the people are on real history records, thier tombs can be visited even today. now you may not believe jesus was the son of God but he did exist we can prove it through historical evidence. where is this backing up the book of mormon .. the lanquage of the native americans isnt’ semetic like hebrew or egyptian. scientists can trace back jewish DNA for 4,000 years they can tell you if you have even a little bit of jew in you. there has been no jewish DNA ever found in any tribe in the americas none. where are the lands in the book of mormon geographicaly they look like new england but where is the evidence these people walked anywhere there. the maps dont’ line up. the two big battles in the book of morman .. take for instance do you know what kind of impact haveing over two million bodies in one area does. well bones take a lot longer to get rid of as we know by the dinosaurs laying around here. well anyone ever gone to find all those bodies at the hill they say those golden plates were found .. anyone .. not one skeleton ever found. the book of mormon says there were horses sheep , cows, and that these people had steel weapons. guys have you ever talked to an eviromentalist or an anthropologist about the impact that smithing has on the enviroment or the people in the culture. we know that cows. horses , and sheep were brought over by the spanish and other european explorers and settlers. and there is no evidence at all that any type of metal smithing was done by the natives at the time the book or mormon took place. science can be used to prove the bible history can to .. but where is the evidence for the most accurate book where is it. we know that sperm whales can swallow a boat seven to eight feet long and will at times do such. also that when they have problems with thier food they float upbove the water line. the fishing boats of biblical times were about seven to eight feet long .. if you were a whale and swalloed a prophet you think you would have trouble with him.. and might float on the water. just knowing some information about one animal can prove a biblical account ..as for genisus it is a story meant ot try to explain to primitive people how god made the world it isnt’ full of huge details how do you explain to a child like mind millions and millions of years of change in a planet leading to thier creation you might dumb it down a bit might you but look at what the story does offer that primitive people might not know. the sun came first. science proves this. life it says was in the oceans first well what do you know science says that is also true… how about the dinosaurs well the bible says god made the sea’s life then birds .. and that was the end of the 5th day .. well we know that birds are the dinosaurs .. so where is this all going the point is the bible has proof on its side. you want to dismiss that fine but joseph smith said that the bible wasn’t accurate and that he had the most accurate book well where is the proof for this book .. it has none .. none at all .. so when jesus said to test a prophet how can we if you won’t look at the proof .. that is why the accounts are so important. becuase if he was spinning lies wouldnt’ you want to know. and if he was telling the truth why can’t it be proved. you say religion is about faith .. fine that is great faith pleases god but paul believed he was doing good when he killed christians .. he had to get knocked off his donkey to realize that no all faith is founded on God and not all faith is a good thing. ( p.s. i apologize for my sloppy spelling and such i needed to write this fast )
Oh. My. Goodness.
Drive-by text walled.
…and what does this have to do with Tal, exactly?
it was just that all the things that drove him to leave were these things, questions that couldnt’ be answered .. and i believe they are valid questions i can’t write those things off and pretend that having faith means ignoring the fact that mormonism might be a lie. i have seriously questioned my beliefs and really went looking for God, it wasnt’ that i ever questioned if there was a God. I knew he existed but did i know him. from reading this i get the feeling most mormons think the rest of the christian world is very currupt like we have our kids and then abandon them. as pointed out by his brother this guy is very strong with his family. i am from a christian household we dont’ drink , smoke , or use bad language. we are very tight knight perfering to spend time with our family and friends. we have home groups and studies we keep very closely connected. we study our bible daily. my husband is mormon i think to a certain extent he was shocked at some of the things i do. he had this impression that other christians were unhappy and lost becuase we didnt’ have the ” true church ” one person pointed out the story about the missionaries that they went back to studying and found all was well. i spend hours studying my bible and i have studied mormon text as well. my husband answers questions the best he can. but to get right down to it the mind blowing lack of evidence the mormon church has is still there. what Tal found was just that. i think he had a huge amounts of courage to come out and voice his reasons for leaving
( again sorry i dont’ get much time i tend just to brain storm type write instead of worry about spelling and such )
Really? Which journal was the science published that proved Adam and Eve — or even the Garden of Eden — existed? What about a flood that covered the entire earth? How about Lot’s wife being turned into a pillar of salt? How about Moses’s parting the Red Sea? Or that Jesus suffered in Gethsamane or as actually resurrected? Or that Jesus walked on water, fed thousands, and actually brought people back from the dead? Or the literally hundreds of other miraculous claims in the Bible?
Where is the science that proves any of these things actually happened?
Heather:
i apologize for my sloppy spelling and such i needed to write this fast
Do you only have a few hours left to live or something?
the bible has proof on its side
All the historical issues that you assert prove that Mormonism is not true beset every major world religion, Christianity included. The issues of Mormonism are relatively minor when it comes to the historicity of the Bible (which is the main source of ‘traditional’ Christianity). Perhaps before you rag on Mormonism, you should investigate your own beliefs first. Apart from the Bible, where is the proof that the Joseph was a ruler in Egypt? That David and Solomon ruled an empire? I could go on, but you get the idea. Every religion is based on faith to some degree. Why is your faith better than the faith of a Mormon, Hindu or Jew?
i think he had a huge amounts of courage to come out and voice his reasons for leaving
Yeah, it takes a lot of courage to attack something from which you are disaffected.
it takes courage to voice any opinion that changes your life. i don’t even know what he believes now i don’t know the guy. i originaly found this by looking up music i like that one song he did.
no science can’t prove everything. there are tons of miricles that we can’t figure out how they were done. but the bible does have history leaning on its side. we have actual historical data proving most of the people existed. and the countries add up. we know that budda existed to ,, you have to remember three major belief structures use the bible and many highschools point to the bible as a hostorical artifact they don’t teach the belief system but the history behind it. i am not attacking mormonism. i am simply pointing the first few comments in this blog about dismissing the importance of historical evidence. i never claimed that i had a more accurate truth. that was joseph smith he claimed that. so he has to prove it. you don’t have to take my words for it. no one does go study everything you can get your hands on study history, science. study it all. dont’ limit yourselves to anything.
as for the parting of the red sea .. there have been studies on the volcanic activity in that region. and at times it will part the sea of reeds. this is sited as being partialy responsiable for the claims of the parting of the red sea. if i made a habbit of attacking mormonism i wouldnt’ have a very good marriage. i am so blessed in my marriage it is amazing. again i state my husband is mormon his family is mormon i love them i would die for those people. i don’t attack them. they dont’ attack me either we exchange ideas all the time. and yes there are still questions about the bible no one can explain .. but for the most part it can back up its historical claims we know the jews were there. we know the area all this is suposed to have taken place we know the romans took census and taxes and recorded a lot of these people being on the earth .. just as i said it is up to someone to beleive wether jesus was the son of god or some guy .. either way we know he did walk the earth. the problem is the book of mormon has no historical proof backing it up .. none what so ever. i just talked to my husband about what was on this blog .. his comment is he is still waiting for the proof as he waits he still beleives in the book of mormon. but he understands why i believe what i believe.
as to not having much time .. i keep having to get up i have two small children and i gotta get my house clean.
p.s. some of the things i mentioned about explaining miricles were in national geographic about five years ago .. there was the article about abraham the father of the three faiths and then explain miricles .. that is one i can remember i would need to go look back up.
“many highschools point to the bible as a hostorical artifact”
Oh my goodness, tell me this isn’t so…
heather, I think you’re confusing Tal’s problems with ‘LDS Church History’ with a belief that the Bible is a book of history.
Tal’s problems were very specific to the LDS founders and their actions and, I believe, had very little to do with the Bible at all.
Did you by any chance attend one of these schools that used the Bible as a historical document?
Was it in the South by any chance?
what would being in the south have anything to do with using a book ..as a historical reference ?
Tal has questions i made the intial comments on teh board becuase of the statment
” Why is it historical accuracy is such a big issue for so many people who left the Church? Why do they put so much weight in the accuracy of events happening exactly as describedmade
I think people get hung up on history and historicity is because the Church really emphasizes it and FARMS swears by it. So some people become disillusioned when the standard version of Church History is discovered to have gaps and a couple of flat-out misrepresentations
these statements i was trying to answer why history can be very important. it isnt’ what you believe but if you claim you have the real deal the “truth” then wouldnt’ you expect to have to back that up. i mean there are so many claims on beliefs if you just want to go off your feelings fine good it dont’ really matter to me. but some people want to make sure thier faith is at least somewhat founded on something real .. not just a chicken running around claiming the sky is falling.
now as for the bible in schools .. it isnt’ a text book but it is a record of history. we also study the vedas and the upanishads. ( spelling ) they are from hindu culture and oh yeah i remember studying the eyptian book of the dead as well. the bible itself is full of journey’s through actual places the desert and africa and the rest of the middle east. one person said did david and soloman run a kingdom .. well the cities are still there to check out .. you can actualy go there. hebrew is still a spoken lanquage. all the places talked about in the new testament are there to .. all those greek cities in question. my brother who served in the military has been to them all he went on his own history trek. there are plenty of historians that will say yes the lands and the people of the bible did infact exists. you guys i think are missing the point. i was trying to explain why history is so important. without that kind of witness nothing we believe in makes any matter faith without a foundation. as for schools do they teach the beliefs that the bible has to offer no .. they teach that it is a hostorical and cultural document that has survived time. again it as best as it can tracks the jewish culture from its very begining.
and the problem is the book of mormon hasn’t got any historical data to back it up at all. no cities , no lanquages , no evidence. so if Tal came and had a problem with things not being accurate or consistant in the stories of the foundations of your church. and then the leaders even admited they didnt’ beleive them. and he couldnt’ find anything in history to back up the claims joseph smith made about the book of mormon. then he might have been faced with one of two choices to keep believing the sky was falling. or Go find a more reliable source of information on God
Hi
Just found this blog when I was searching for something else, and thought I’d post something since some people seem interested in my story.
I left the religion I’d devoted my life to because I realized, much to my horror and sorrow, that it wasn’t what it claimed to be. That is, I discovered that Joseph Smith hadn’t told the truth about his experiences.
To stay in and “pretend”, like so many others do (as I’ve come to find out in the past few years), just isn’t me. I’d given my whole heart and soul to Mormonism, based every important decision of my life on what I thought was the truth, done my best to raise my (then) seven kids in it, given them all Mormon names like mine (Talmage), everything…and when I found it wasn’t what it claimed, I couldn’t just close my eyes and pretend. To paraphrase what I said on the PBS special – Mormonism might be a million things, even a million good things; but in the end, if it’s not what it claims, then…it’s no more worth living for, as it is dying for.
I appreciate the friends I made while a member, and I presume that for some people at some periods of life, Mormonism, like other religions, can serve an important purpose. If one has to make a choice between, say, Mormonism (or Moonie-ism or Catholicism or whatever) and heroin addiction or a life of crime, I’d vote for the first.
But…I’m not in that desperate situation. I’ve always hated drugs and have no desire to try them. I’m happily married to a wonderful woman and have eight beautiful children…and, in terms of whatever utility Mormonism might have, I don’t see how it would be worth the cost of my precious children being taught, say, to claim publicly that they know something to be true, that they don’t know at all. I want them to be honest and self-respecting, intelligent and genuine.
Anyway, by nature I’m not like the guys who went along with Mormonism because it was their “heritage” or because “they like it”, and so stick with it even once they realize JS didn’t tell the truth. I was the most devout Mormon I could be because I honestly thought it was all it claimed; so once we knew it wasn’t…we did just what we would have done if we’d been Scientologists or Moonies and found out the same thing: we left.
Feel free to email if you’d like. My email is: herrbachmann@gmail.com.
Thanks for commenting, Tal. Based on what I’ve read about your experience, I did not have any impression of why you left that was different from what you state here.
By the way, I know your Uncle Tim and your cousin Paxton.
I really appreciated those thoughts, as they sum up many of my thoughts.
I have had people say to me…”Well can’t you just go, and pretend, for your kids sake, and then do what you want when they graduate and move on?” Well, what would I be teaching them if I did that, and what does that say about many of the “fence sitters” in the church that may be doing just that.
I am not a pretender. I have to keep it real. I am open and honest with myself, those around me, and especially my children.
Thanks again Tal.
I admire honesty in choices rather than pretending and it amazes me that people would want you to be hypocritical. Children aren’t idiots either, and they would know if you were sincere or not. Only myself and one sister out of seven children are active in Church. They are honest with their choices, those who don’t attend anymore and I prefer that to the people who pretend to be active members and their hearts are cold towards the gospel in reality.
I thought I’d throw my two cents in to this discussion since half of my family already has (Hey Rick and Dar).
As an active member of the church living in Southern Alberta, or as I refer to it “The Mormon Triangle: Where rational and independent thought disappear with out a trace.” I can’t help but shake my head at many of the opinions posted here.
First of all let me state that like Rick, I was born and raised in the south as a non-member (sorry quick tangent – but could we be anymore alienating to others by using the terms member and non-member, how about simple LDS and not LDS). It wasn’t until I travelled far, far, far from here that I was able to separate the people from the doctrine and joined the church. I’ve since been married (in the temple), somehow stayed active, and am doing my best to raise my children to be honest and true individuals.
Enough history – here are my thoughts. Clearly Tal is still a great person, a loving husband, and a kind and caring father. Most important he is honest and true to himself. Now, correct me if I’m wrong (and I’m sure you will) but isn’t his faith and testimony and issue between our Heavenly Father, Jesus, and Tal. Based on my experiences with all of the hippocracy, self-rightoues, arrogant, holier-than-thou, and “Hey look at me, I’m sooo righteous” individuals that profess to be Latter-day Saints, don’t we have bigger personal issues than trashing others for their personal decisions. Personally, I’m busy trying to make the right choices myself, I haven’t time to critize others.
Personal convictions and personal beleifs are just that – personal. Anyway, if Tal ends up going on a killing spree or spending months in rehab, then I’ll be concerned about him. I’d rather spend time with an honest non-LDS person than with someone who goes to church every Sunday just to keep up apperances and to look righteous.
To paraphrase (and rather loosley at that) Chris Rock – I hate Mormons … but I love Latter-day Saints.
In other words I truly love and appriciate those LDS people who truly are humble and just trying to do their best everyday.
Sorry about the typos – some how i posted before I had a chance to proof-read.
Kim wasn’t making a judgment call on Tal or anyone else. f course it is between Tal and the Lord. Our Thoughtss is a forum where posters post their thoughts and opinions for discussion, which is what Kim was doing.
For the record though, I agree with you. Hypocrisy has never sat well with me.
One would think so. If that were true then, why would Tal bring it up in an interview with a newspaper reporter? While promoting his new album no less.
Oh and I should add, not all thoughts are necessarily opinions of the writer.
I enjoyed reading the majority of these posts. A lot of you had some fantastic insight and I thank you for sharing it. I read a letter of Tal’s and was interested to read why he was so bitter and angry towards the church. He got tired of living righteously. He nit picked just about every part of the word of wisdom, the law of chastity and other aspects of the gospel that aren’t always easy to live. I’ve seen people time and time again make excuses as to why they want out of the church or want nothing to do with it. I wish people would come out and say, “I’m lazy and no longer willing to live gospel standards”. My cousin doesn’t go to church or really affiliate with the church in any way. He said he doesn’t because he’s not ready to live a life worhty of it but he hopes that some day he can. Kudos to him for being truly honest.
“I’m lazy and no longer willing to live gospel standards”
Wow, I think you’ve completely missed his points.
There’s something I don’t understand about many who decide to leave the LDS Church. On the one hand, ex-mormons like Tal Bachman, often talk about how, now that they’re no longer LDS, they live lives free of guilt and unhappiness. But then, you read their comments on ex-mormon websites, and often it is filled with nothing but hatred, bitterness and abrasive or filthy language.
Sure, I know. People need some kind of mental release after going through such a painful process as leaving their church. That’s a given. But how much of a mental release does one need? Steve Benson, for example, left the LDS Church 15 years ago, and he still continues to post comments online, taking shots at any and all prominent Latter-day Saints. Please tell me, where’s the joy in this? Where’s the happiness in this?
I’ve read many of Tal Bachman’s online comments concerning the LDS Church, and while I don’t know him personally, I can’t help but wonder if he, like many others, has simply become a prisoner of his hatred for the LDS Church.
It isn’t that Bachman simply criticizes LDS teachings or doctrine. Instead, he ruthlessly head slams anything and everything having to do with the LDS Church. Often, his words leave me with the impression that becoming an ex-mormon means becoming a ever more frustrated and bitter individual.
Some people might say that while these people might be negative on the Internet, when you meet them in real life, they’re not so bad. Sad to say, this hasn’t been my experience. In the past, I’ve left several jobs because of ex-mormon co-workers who never wasted an opportunity to mock, belittle or harass their LDS co-workers.
I would be much more open to understanding the criticisms of ex-mormons like Tal Bachman, if such criticisms weren’t laced with such insulting and belittleing rhetoric, and if the attitudes of these ex-mormons didn’t leave me with such a sick taste in my mouth.
People can attack the attitudes of lifestyles of LDS Church members all they want, but the pot calling the kettle black leads nowhere.
Clark
All I can say is I agree. I see it even in my own family.
Like Clark I have read quite a lot of Tal Bachman’s writings since he left the church. The “letter” he wrote to this thread is calm and reasonable. The other writings are not. I agree with Clark – if someone is leaving simply because they want to leave there would not be this bitterness and hatred and this – almost compulsion – to denigrate everything that this faith means to so many of us. I do not agree with some other religions at all – but I would never, ever speak of them the way Mr. Bachman speaks of my religion. I’ve known a few people who have left this church, and most of them have left with dignity and respect on both sides and with none of the bitterness that Mr. Bachman flavours his writings with.
We aren’t all bitter.
Jeff,
Yes, that’s true. Unfortunately some are, but you will find that anywhere.
Sorry Jeff – I wasn’t aiming at you (or others I know) but at the people who do leave and then rip the church apart publicly and privately. I left the church for several years in my early thirties and it was my choice, so I understand (perhaps) the feelings. I just don’t understand the compulsion to hurt.
Do you think this is in some respect an echoing of the treatment they got while being members?
I can’t speak for Tal or any other exmormon, but my thoughts would be there is a direct correlation between the amount of (to their mind) abuse they took while members and the amount of vitriol they exhibit when no longer members.
For some exmormons, I would imagine that life in the church would have been close to unbearable once they’ve decided to leave. Gays, lesbians, members of African lineage and converts being the most obvious examples.
Not to be forgotten would be the firmly entrenched ‘elite’ families of Mormonism. Resigning one’s membership while being a member of one of these families must be excruciating. Tal, I believe, would fall into this group.
You’re kidding, right Rick? Tal’s dad is a convert. I’d hardly call him in the “elite” or “entrenched” of the church. Based on the anecdotal reports I have heard, he doesn’t go to church much himself.
…anymore.
From what I understand he didn’t much to start with. Certainly not enough to be considered elite or entrenched.
Up until he quit, he was a dedicated member his whole life. That’s pretty entrenched, and plenty of time and energy invested in something that turned out to be not what he thought.
Are you talking about Tal or his dad?
I realized that wasn’t clear after I posted. I was talking about Tal.
“entrenched ‘elite’ families” might be hyperbole but he was definitely a strongly convicted member.
Speaking only for myself… leaving the church is not an easy thing to do and once you do it, you feel both a great loss and a great weight lifted from you—the bitterness doesn’t necessarily set in until you realize the mental back flips you’ve been putting yourself through were for nothing.
I might be willing to concede the point as to Tal’s ‘elite’ness, but it’s certainly applicable yo Steve Benson – who still gets crazy emails from members. That guy’s spite I can completely see validated.
I was talking about his dad, Jeff.
Rick said:
“That guy’s spite I can completely see validated.”
So let me get this straight. Steve Benson and Tal Bachman can go on the Internet and write page, after page, after page, of the most disgusting, juvenile, bitter, spiteful and hate-filled comments they can about the LDS Church and its members, and if somewhere down the road, one or two Latter-day Saints respond with “crazy” e-mails, that somehow justifies everything Benson and Bachman have written and will continue to write?
If ex-mormons are so happy and so uplifted, then why do they feel the need to stoop down to the level of the very people they most vocally despise? Often even going lower.