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Are all spirits the same gender as the bodies they inhabit?

78 thoughts on “Gender

  1. I knew someone who went through sexual reassignment surgery, male to female. When I asked if she had a chromosome test done, to confirm if she was XX or XY or other, she said no. I was kind of surprised.

    Steve EM: The intersexed chimera mosaic is new to me. Can you provide a 30 second explanation or a link?

  2. My understanding, Bookslinger is that this phenomenon happens in the womb when one fraternal twin absorbs the other, opposite-gender twin at early stages of development. The remaining baby ends up developing with two separate sets of DNA.

  3. IMO.. Heavenly Father knew us all in the pre-existance.. he knew who we were and what we were.. he knew what our life would be here on earth.. and to some extent so did we.. we chose to remain to follow Christ when the heaven was in its war. If Heavenly Father knew what was going to happen with gender crossing etc he obviously has made arrangements to deal with it all in the next life. As none of us have the ability to actually sit down with HIM face to face and ask him along with getting an actual answer we all will have to patiently (choke choke cough snort choke)wait and find out what the results are in our next life.

    We certainly can all pray about how He feels about it and what is the right thing… but then we cross over the line whether what we “receive” from our prayers are actually answers from Heavenly Father or just our own mind agreeing with ourselves.

  4. Kim, Thanks. I think there was a CSI episode about a chimera. :-)

    Steve EM, never mind, I googled the terms and found some web pages. You’re right, there are several more conditions consisting of abnormal variations in genetics and fetal development. Science has discovered a lot more since I last studied the topic.

    Would it be safe to say that such individuals are known or given exceptions? And that individuals with normal genetics corresponding to normal internal and external physiology are claiming an exception that can’t be medically verified?

  5. Steve, you’ve only written off “a certain apostle” as a false prophet? Don’t you have to write off all the rest by implication? If President Hinckley isn’t removing a false prophet from the Twelve, then doesn’t that make him false, too?

  6. Bookslinger,

    There was also a documentary on A&E a few weeks ago as well. A mother tried to file for government assistance since her husband/partner left her, and was denied because her DNA did not match that of her children.

  7. Kim: In response to the original post, let me put forth this proposition: All spirits are the same gender (or, to use the more accurate term I prefer, the same SEX) as the bodies they will inhabit in the resurrection.

  8. Itbugaf, My conclusion about an individual apostle is mind alone. I’m not seeking to convince others or dictate a course of action to GBH. I think there would have to be an overwhelming consensus amoung the other apostles anyway. Although they are obviuosly very different people, BKP is the third most senior apostle, and I’m sure GBH has a long working relationship with him.

    Let’s just agree to disagree about BKP.

  9. Then in direct response to your proposition, are the gender of the body one inhabits in our mortal life and the gender of the body one inhabits during the resurrection always the same?

  10. WAIT! That’s not what I meant. I was answering the wrong question. I thought you were asking whether the gender of the spirit was the same…

    The answer to the real question you asked is, it can’t ALWAYS be the same because the sex of the mortal body isn’t ALWAYS clear.

  11. No. If someone on this earth is born with a missing hand, that’s now how their body will be, either. A person with two sets of sex organs and a chromosome set of XXY is similarly suffering from a birth defect, that will be corrected in the resurrection.

  12. The Proclamation on the Family seems to indicate it’s a characteristic of both spirits and bodies. When there’s a partial mismatch, that’s a flaw of the body.

  13. “……individuals with normal genetics corresponding to normal internal and external physiology are claiming an exception that can’t be medically verified?”

    Bookslinger, Yes, you’re absolutly correct. My piont is it is cruel to tell such an individual who feels they are such an exception that their feelings are misguided when we don’t live in thier skin and can’t possibly know what they’re going through.

  14. Steve:

    Is it cruelty or just speaking the truth God has given him?

    I think I know what your answer will be, but on what are you basing it?

  15. The Proclamation states that gender is a characteristic of premortal and mortal identity, which of course isn’t the same thing as stating that the gender characteristic of the premortal and mortal identities are identical.

  16. Itbugaf, just focusing on topic, I don’t believe BKP has any special knowledge in this area. If he honestly feels otherwise, I believe he’s confused and oblivious to the harm he’s caused. To explain, as previously stated, I don’t know if some people are born gay or not, transsexual or not, but to preclude the possibility is to naively ignore the reality of our chaotic existence. Such dogma pretends that chaos is precluded in some areas of our existence, such as sexual orientation during fetal development, which is just nonsensical given all the other random chaotic birth defects we deal with. He seems to have exceeded his commission on this subject. I’m sure you disagree, and that’s ok.

  17. ltbugaf’s Most Sensible Comment of the Thread Award is hereby given to…

    Bookslinger, for #34.

  18. I know this thread is over a year old but I have to leave some comments here for clarification for people that may come across this thread in the future. Yes, “BKP” is a prophet. He’s also a mortal. I’m not saying that what he has said on this matter is wrong but that we may not be able to fully and accurately perceive his viewpoint on this matter and he may have never fully explained it himself.

    The quote by Oaks is true. He, as a general authority, teaches general principles and sometimes exceptions apply to particular individuals. Yes, determining that you might be an exception to a rule is difficult and I suppose requires tremendous humility.

    I should also mention that the current church handbook of instructions states that participating in a gender reassignment operation is generally grounds for excommunication but that specific questions should be forwarded to the First Presidency. That may or may not be the exact wording but it is at least less strict than the prior version of the handbook was. And I have some knowledge of at least one such case being forwarded to the First Presidency and approved but I am trying to confirm that this actually took place.

    It is true that our spirits are either male or female and that in the vast majority of cases a male spirit will inhabit a male body in mortality and a female spirit will inhabit a female body in mortality. It is also true that the few remaining exceptions will be corrected in the resurrection. It is also true that a male cannot be sealed as husband to another male in eternity nor can a female be sealed to another female as a wife in eternity, nor could a union between male and male or between female and female produce spirit offspring in the resurrection.

    For myself, I have struggled with a gender identity disorder for as long as I can remember. I’ve never had a test done to determine if I have an XXY situation but I would certainly be interested in finding out. I guess it’s partly a money issue and partly fear of asking for the test to be done only to get the results and find out nothing is abnormal with my chromosomes, in which case the whole thing would’ve just been a waste of time. I also don’t know what I would do if I found out I had XXY chromosomes. I am a worthy (not perfect), and frequently attending, temple recommend holder. I do not in any way identify with the so-called “gay movement” or advocate any actions contrary to the teachings of the restored gospel. My struggle is my own and does not harm my testimony. I do not know why I even have this struggle or why it’s so persistent over such a long period of time. I’ve accepted that I at least appear male and try my best to fill that role but it rarely feels right to me.

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