“And this is the manner after which they were ordained?˘‚Ǩ‚Äůbeing called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works”
Are we to understand that we exercised faith and performed good works in the pre-mortal existence?
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Yeah. We exercised faith that Christ would redeem us. And I was a missionary to those who were undecided as to whether or not they’d choose mortality–according to my PB.
13 Mar 2006 @ 20:33 | Permalink
Though they may have exercised faith and good works in premortal life, the faith and good works discussed in this verse may not be premortal. The people in question were called and prepared according to the foreknowledge of God–that is, God’s knowing ahead of time of the faith and good works they would exercise in mortal life.
13 Mar 2006 @ 21:11 | Permalink
Are we to understand that we exercised faith and performed good works in the pre-mortal existence?
Yes.
13 Mar 2006 @ 21:32 | Permalink
Uh huh.
K.
13 Mar 2006 @ 21:59 | Permalink
Yes. Many became noble and great during the preexistence
14 Mar 2006 @ 06:30 | Permalink
Sometimes in reading my PB, I wonder how I was so much better back then than I am now. It gives me hope forimprovement though :)
14 Mar 2006 @ 06:47 | Permalink
I don’t disagree that many people showed faith and good works before coming to earth. But the faith and good works in discussed in this verse are mentioned in connection with the foreknowledge of God. So when you ask, “Are we to understand…?” I assume you mean, are we to understand from this verse? And this verse alone doesn’t necessarily support the idea that we exercised faith and performed good works in premortal life. There are OTHER sources for that.
14 Mar 2006 @ 06:49 | Permalink
“The people in question were called and prepared according to the foreknowledge of God–that is, God’s knowing ahead of time of the faith and good works they would exercise in mortal life.”
That sounds more like predestination than foreknowledge.
14 Mar 2006 @ 08:28 | Permalink
Not at all. Predestination would mean that God had forced them to do what they were doing. Their free will is in no way violated by the fact that God knows which free choice they’re going to make. He knows about the faith and good works they’re going to exercise on earth, using their own free will, and he selects them on that basis.
14 Mar 2006 @ 08:50 | Permalink
I wouldn’t be so quick to say that predestination constitutes force.
That being said, is God so omniscient that he knew what choices each person will make in every circumstance before nay of us were born? If so, and he is deciding priesthood ordinations beforehand on this, how free is so-called free will?
14 Mar 2006 @ 08:56 | Permalink
Kim, how does the ordination take away free will? Does an ordination to the Priesthood in mortal life take away the agency of the Priesthood holder? Of course not–as the apostasy of several apostles in our own dispensation shows. Likewise, I don’t see how this foreordination takes away any freedom from anyone.
14 Mar 2006 @ 08:59 | Permalink
Precisely Kim.
If I know exactly how someone will behave, given a certain situation – and then judge them for their behaviour, is that really fair?
14 Mar 2006 @ 09:00 | Permalink
Rick, it isn’t fair because your knowledge isn’t perfect. God’s knowledge is. I also don’t see what “judgment” you’re talking about.
14 Mar 2006 @ 09:08 | Permalink
Kim, you asked, “is God so omniscient that he knew what choices each person will make in every circumstance before nay of us were born?”
If this is not your interpretation of the “foreknowledge of God,” then what is?
14 Mar 2006 @ 09:10 | Permalink
If God knows every decision we’re going to make before we make it, then the concept of free will and sin have no place.
14 Mar 2006 @ 09:28 | Permalink
I don’t necessarily believe God knows EVERY choice we are EVER going to make.
K.
14 Mar 2006 @ 10:04 | Permalink
Rick, you said, “If God knows every decision we’re going to make before we make it, then the concept of free will and sin have no place.”
Why?
How does foreknowledge of what you will freely choose to do compromise your freedom? It doesn’t.
14 Mar 2006 @ 10:13 | Permalink
Free will is incompatible with exhaustive foreknowledge. So I agree with Kris, Kim, and Rick.
14 Mar 2006 @ 13:00 | Permalink
Geoff, the link you’ve offered discusses the incompatibility of free will with “determinism.” But as should be obvious to you, I don’t believe in determinism. I believe that all our choices are made with free will (except as limited by such factors as mental illness, etc.) and that our Heavenly Father, knowing all things from the beginning (see 1 Nephi 9:6) knows what free-will choices we’re going to make. There’s absolutely nothing incompatible about those two beliefs.
14 Mar 2006 @ 13:09 | Permalink
“How does foreknowledge of what you will freely choose to do compromise your freedom? It doesn’t.”
An Example:
a) I *know* that given any chance you will choose the left branch of any two-way intersection.
b) I *know* that given any chance, you will choose the right most branch of any intersection.
Is is possible for me to give you free will, and yet design a maze that will both allow *some* people to get through, but will *not* allow you to get through?
Of course.
Have I diminished your ‘free-will’?
Not from your perogative, but in the greater picture, I have made this an impossible task for you.
btw, great link Goeff
14 Mar 2006 @ 13:13 | Permalink
b) should read:
b) I *know* that given any chance, you will choose the right most branch of any OTHER intersection.
14 Mar 2006 @ 13:14 | Permalink
Rick, no, you haven’t diminished my free will. You haven’t diminished my capacity to choose which way I will turn. What you have done is determine what the results of my choice will be. We are all free to make our own choices, but never free to choose what the consequences thereof will be.
Did God diminish the free will of those who took the 116-page manuscript from Martin Harris, because he knew they would do so and made other provision for the scriptural material to be included in the Book of Mormon translation? No. They still had freedom to choose, and exercised that choice. But he outsmarted them, because he already knew what was going to happen.
14 Mar 2006 @ 13:21 | Permalink
Assuming, of course, that that is the reason Mormon included the small plates of Nephi. Mormon, however, doesn’t give a specific reason why he included them other than he thought they were a good read.
14 Mar 2006 @ 13:24 | Permalink
I stand in quite awe of the missing 116 pg analogy with which you have just presented me.
It’s just all so clear now.
(scarcasm off)
If that’s the best example of free will in the presence of exhaustive foreknowledge, I sorry to tell you that I will forever remain unconvinced.
14 Mar 2006 @ 13:29 | Permalink
There are generally two ways people explain exhaustive foreknowledge — Determism or God living “outside of time”. In either case real free will is incompatible with foreknowledge though. If at this moment God *knows* you will be damned after this life you have no power to change that — therefore you do not have free will as I understand it. Exhaustive foreknowledge requires a fixed future and real free will requires an open future.
See concurrent discussion going on here. See a series of related posts here.
14 Mar 2006 @ 15:49 | Permalink
Rick, I was kind of hoping you would offer some reasoning or argument, rather than just dismissive and contemptuous language. I’ll have to assume you have no answer to the example I gave.
14 Mar 2006 @ 14:03 | Permalink
Kim, Doctrine & Covenants 10:38–43 seems to say that this was the Lord’s purpose in inspiring Mormon to include the small plates.
14 Mar 2006 @ 14:16 | Permalink
Kim, your characterization of Mormon’s reason for including the small plates is also wrong according to Mormon’s own words in Words of Mormon 1:7. He included the small plates because the Spirit told him to, for a purpose the Lord knew, because “the Lord knoweth all things which are to come.”
It seems many people on this thread don’t believe that God does know all things which are to come. But Mormon did, and that was why he was inspired to include the small plates.
14 Mar 2006 @ 14:27 | Permalink
Sorry, I think that last sentence was confusing. I mean that Mormon did believe the Lord knows all things which are to come, and that it’s because God DOES know all things which are to come that Mormon was inspired to include the small plates.
14 Mar 2006 @ 14:29 | Permalink
I think God does know everything. He just doesn’t act on everything.
14 Mar 2006 @ 14:41 | Permalink
Or rather, He lets us make our own way.
14 Mar 2006 @ 15:04 | Permalink
“I’ll have to assume you have no answer to the example I gave.”
No, it’s because your argument is so similar to the ‘the bible is true, because it says so in the bible’ argument.
14 Mar 2006 @ 15:09 | Permalink
Geoff, I don’t see how a person whose future is known to God is thereby deprived of any freedom of choice. God doesn’t determine the future; he just knows it. Exhaustive foreknowledge doesn’t determine a “fixed future” if fixed future means a future not shaped by the free will of the individual.
Rick, I’m not trying to prove the truthfulness of the 116-page story or of the Book of Mormon. I’m trying to show that the Book of Mormon, and the history of the Book of Mormon, are both supportive of the belief that God knows all things from the beginning. Are you disagreeing with me on that point?
14 Mar 2006 @ 16:11 | Permalink
Geoff, by the way, I myself am a proponent of the “God is not limited by time” side. He sees all things, past, present and future, as if they are all now.
14 Mar 2006 @ 16:17 | Permalink
“If at this moment God *knows* you will be damned after this life you have no power to change that.”
Not so. God knows that you will be damned only because you, through your own free choices, will have chosen to be damned.
14 Mar 2006 @ 16:18 | Permalink
God knows that you will be damned only because you, through your own free choices, will have chosen to be damned.
What you believe then is what is properly called “hypothetical free will”. In the scenario I mentioned your damnation is fixed even though it is in the future and there is nothing you or God can do about it. It is as fixed as if it had already happened. You have the *hypothetical* option to choose otherwise but not the real option because the future is fixed. If that isn’t predesination then what is it?
Lots of people buy this idea, but don’t confuse it with real free will.
14 Mar 2006 @ 16:26 | Permalink
I agree with Itbugah, I think we’ve had this discussion, Geoff. I think God exists out of time, or time stands still where He is. I don’t think the future is fixed I think it’s already happened. Not for me or you, but God knows because He can see it. In my opinion.
This is a confusing subject. I’ve never understood the difference between foreordained and the other word.
Do I think I was righteous in the pre-existence? Yes. I think I was unique and special and all that, but so was everyone else. So was Satan.
I think somehow I had the sense to choose correctly on one thing, which now I can hardly believe because I want the world to do what I say. What a fool I was. If I could go back, I’d be a kick butt ministering angel.
I think plenty of “righteous” special wonderful spirits chose wrongly, which is really sad, huh?
14 Mar 2006 @ 19:07 | Permalink
Geoff: “your damnation is fixed…and there is nothing you or God can do about it.”
Again, that’s simply not true. The person chooses his own actions, with absolute freedom. At the same time, God already knows what is going to happen. So why do you insist on the false conclusion that there’s nothing the individual can do about it? Every choice he makes along the route is a free choice. No outside force constrains his will. If that isn’t free will, what is? Why do you insist that someone else’s mere knowledge of your choices, present and future, determines what the choices will be and takes away your freedom? That just doesn’t make sense.
14 Mar 2006 @ 19:17 | Permalink
Geoff, how are you defining damnation? My friend, the college graduate and teacher, always used to use that term when teaching Relief Society. I finally asked her and she laughed and said, “oh, you won’t go to the highest in the Celestial Kingdom.”
She clarified that from now on and there were some relieved looks. I think we were all thinking outer darkness, which didn’t make sense, but she was the guru.
14 Mar 2006 @ 19:35 | Permalink
Here are some scriptural passages that I think explicitly support my view. I’m sincerely curious about how these passages are interpreted or accounted for by those who deny that God knows everything that will happen in the future (assuming that they also believe in the truthfulness and divinity of the scriptures).
Acts 2:23 (God knew that Christ would be betrayed and crucified before it happened)
Acts 17:26 (God appointed beforehand the times and bounds of the habitations of all men)
1 Peter 1:2 (Peter was “elect” or in other words, chosen, to be an apostle according to God’s foreknowledge of him)
1 Nephi 9:6 (God knows all things from the beginning, which is why he can prepare a way to accomplish all he wants to do)
2 Nephi 2:24 (God knows all things)
2 Nephi 9:20 (There’s nothing God doesn’t know)
Words of Mormon 1:7 (God knows all things which are to come, so he can inspire Mormon to do according to his will in bringing the small plates to light)
Alma 13:7 (The order of the Priesthood was prepared “from eternity to all eternity” according to God’s foreknowledge of all things)
Alma 40:10 (God knows all the times appointed unto man)
Helaman 8:8 (God knows all the things that will befall the Nephites)
Doctrine & Covenants 38:2 and Moses 1:9 (all things are present before God’s eyes)
Abraham 2:8 (Jehovah knows the end from the beginning)
14 Mar 2006 @ 19:43 | Permalink
Itbugaf: So why do you insist on the false conclusion that there’s nothing the individual can do about it?
No I think you are missing the point. If God *knows* I *will* murder someone on Feb. 12, 2009 can I choose otherwise?
I may even think I am freely choosing along the way, but if God knows it will happen then it is fated and I am predestined to be a murderer. No matter how I try not to murder someone in 2009 it must happen because God knows it will happen. Changing a fixed future is as fruitless as changing the past.
If this is not the case please explain how.
14 Mar 2006 @ 21:28 | Permalink
Annegb,
I actually wasn’t defining damnation. I was just using that as an example of how a fixed future (rather than an open future) obliterates free will. Further, knowing what will happen in a fixed future is useless to God since he would know what he will do too and knowing what he will do means he cannot do otherwise (unless the future is open).
14 Mar 2006 @ 21:32 | Permalink
“Doctrine & Covenants 10:38–43 seems to say that this was the Lord’s purpose in inspiring Mormon to include the small plates.”
It could be interpreted that way. It could also be interpreted as the Lord saying, don’t worry about it, just use these other plates.
For all we know, the entire Book of Mormon could have been duplicated in the other two thirds that were sealed.
14 Mar 2006 @ 21:45 | Permalink
Dang, Geoff, you blew my theory all to hell.
That’s the only way I could figure out God was with each of us.
But, if it’s already happened and I’ve chosen in the future, then I’ve still chosen. Right?
I’ve tied a knot in my brain.
Perhaps a childlike faith would work in this type of case, just accept that God is with us and we can choose. HOW that happens is about as important as evolution vs. creationism.
14 Mar 2006 @ 21:51 | Permalink
But Ann,
I thought you didn’t like stupid faith?
K.
14 Mar 2006 @ 23:46 | Permalink
Geoff, re: #41: The reason you can choose otherwise is that the only reason God *knows* you will murder someone on Feb. 12 2009 is that he already sees what you will freely choose on that day. His knowledge doesn’t cause you to make that choice; you make it on your own. His knowledge doesn’t predetermine or predestine your actions. It’s untrue that “no matter how hard I try not to murder someone…it must happen.” If you are choosing not to murder someone that day, then God will not have foreseen you murdering. Rather than God’s foreknowledge determining your actions, it is your free choices that determine what God foresees. Your actions that day are determined by your choices, not by some else’s knowledge of your choices.
15 Mar 2006 @ 05:50 | Permalink
By the way, I forgot some more important scriptural support: 1 Nephi 12-14 contain Nephi’s extensive vision of future events. If God actually didn’t know these things were going to happen in the future, I don’t know why he would have shown them to Nephi in a vision. Was it just a lucky guess? Or does God just act as a charlatan, showing lots of visions full of predictions true and false, so that he can claim credit when some of them come true?
15 Mar 2006 @ 05:59 | Permalink
annegb, I really don’t see how Geoff has blown away anything of what you said, let alone to a domain of weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.
15 Mar 2006 @ 06:01 | Permalink
ok, i need to clarify my thoughts. Heavenly Father knows what is possible, not necessarily knows irrevocably, because in order to have freedom to choose it can’t be a foregone conclusion.
I believe as well that He knows what can happen based on choices we might make, but He doesn’t know for sure it will happen or rather, chooses not to know, He just knows what will happen based on choices we make.
15 Mar 2006 @ 07:09 | Permalink
Mary, why can’t your free choice in the future be the cause of God knowing now what your choice will be?
15 Mar 2006 @ 07:38 | Permalink
Because it can’t be a choice if the future is fixed.
15 Mar 2006 @ 07:50 | Permalink
Kim, the future is fixed only by the free choice, not by the knowledge of God.
15 Mar 2006 @ 07:56 | Permalink
You and Geoff both seem to be insisting on a certain temporal relationship between cause and effect, putting the cause before the effect in time. But there’s no reason to suppose God is confined in this way. Your free choice in the future informs him in the present and the past. Hence, a future event causes knowledge that happens “before” it.
15 Mar 2006 @ 07:59 | Permalink
Still hoping someone out there will offer an explanation for the scriptures I cited.
15 Mar 2006 @ 08:02 | Permalink
Because He knows what can happen based on different choices I may make, but not exactly what will happen. If He knows the choice I will make than that means it is pre-destined and the choice is taken out of the matter.
15 Mar 2006 @ 08:14 | Permalink
Nearly everyone keeps saying that if God knows what choice you will make, that makes the choice predestined. Are you just trying to strengthen this argument through repetition? As I’ve pointed out several times now, that isn’t true. His knowledge does not predestine what he knows. His knowledge is the result, not the cause, of the future event.
Mary, you say God knows what CAN happen but not what WILL happen. What are you basing that on? I say the scriptures are against you on that point, as I showed above.
15 Mar 2006 @ 08:55 | Permalink
Itbugaf: The reason you can choose otherwise is that the only reason God *knows* you will murder someone on Feb. 12 2009 is that he already sees what you will freely choose on that day.
That’s circular reasoning if I ever heard it…
You can call it “free” all you want but that does not take away the fact that if the future is fixed none of us are actually free. If I am fated to murder in 2009 I CAN NOT choose otherwise no matter how much I wish I could.
You seem hung up on whether God forces this fixed future on us but that is beside to the point. I need not be forced to be fated. The fact is that I am only actually free if the future is unscripted and open. If my future is already pre-scripted then we are all predestined whether it feels that way or not. Simply claiming that is not true does not make it so.
I think Mary and Kim are on to the right track though. God can know the open possibilities and can predict them to a level that appears like exhaustive foreknowledge to mortals.
15 Mar 2006 @ 08:55 | Permalink
Geoff, your own choice of whether to murder or not murder is the only determinant of what will happen. It is the only determinant of what God knows. Please show me how this is “fated” or “predestined.” You determine the future, and God sees it.
You seem hung up on whether God’s knowledge happens before or after you make your choice but that is beside the point. The choice need not come before the knowledge in time in order for it to be free. The fact is that I am actually free to make my own choice unless an outside force is interfering with my agency. The fact that another being knows what I’m going to choose doesn’t provide any interference.
Your future is not “pre-scripted” just because God can foresee it. It is created by your own choices, as you make them. God sees those free choices. The fact that he is not bound by time and therefore sees the future, past and present at once, doesn’t suppress your freedom in choosing. Unless your choices are interfered with, they’re free. There is no “fate” to “escape” because the future which God sees is the one created by your free, uninhibited choices.
15 Mar 2006 @ 09:08 | Permalink
“God can know the open possibilities and can predict them to a level that appears like exhaustive foreknowledge to mortals.”
So God is just a really good guesser? I don’t think I can accept that doctrine. And I don’t think ANY of the scriptures cited above are in agreement with you.
15 Mar 2006 @ 09:10 | Permalink
But ltbugaf, when you say He knows what will happen, no matter what, you are basically saying it’s all predetermined and we have no choice in the matter.
15 Mar 2006 @ 09:16 | Permalink
What I am saying is, He knows all the scenarios, because He knows us better than anyone else. And He still allows us to choose.
15 Mar 2006 @ 09:17 | Permalink
“when you say He knows what will happen, no matter what, you are basically saying it’s all predetermined and we have no choice in the matter.”
No, I’m not. I’ve explained this so many times I don’t know what else to say. Please read what I’ve already written above. You make the choice, and God sees it. Seeing it doesn’t determine it. Foreknowledge doesn’t interfere with your agency.
15 Mar 2006 @ 09:30 | Permalink
Itbugaf: Please show me how this is “fated” or “predestined.” You determine the future, and God sees it.
Because if God knows I will murder in 2009 I cannot choose otherwise — now or then. Because in that scenario there are no open possibilities — only a fixed future.
“fate
n 1: an event (or a course of events) that will inevitably happen in the future [syn: destiny]”
So God is just a really good guesser?
Not just a good guesser — the ultimate predictor of the choices of his truly free children. I have enough faith in God’s power and knowledge to believe he can pull it off even though the future is open.
15 Mar 2006 @ 09:35 | Permalink
Geoff, since God’s knowledge of your action is caused and determined only by your choice to take that action, you CAN choose otherwise. You choose to kill or not to kill. You’re not hemmed in or limited by any kind of “fate.” You choose, God sees.
If God doesn’t know, but just has a lot of ability to predict, then he’s guessing, no matter how skillfully. I reject the doctrine that God is a cosmic, well-informed gambler who’s playing the odds. You say you have faith in God’s knowledge, but you deny that he has it.
15 Mar 2006 @ 09:42 | Permalink
As I said earlier, you are taking the classic compatibilist stance Itbugaf. You certainly can do that if you want, but what you are describing is not real free will but is more precisely known as “hypothetical free will”. The compatibilist claim is that even though we are all fated to a fixed future we are also “free” because we hypothetically could choose otherwise (even though we can’t do so in reality). I find such a version of free will anemic and frankly, contra-scriptural (see 2 Nephi 2).
You say you have faith in God’s knowledge, but you deny that he has it.
Actually, I believe God knows all that is knowable.
15 Mar 2006 @ 09:49 | Permalink
I’m also still wondering what you think of Mormon’s words–was he just mistaken when he said God knows all things that will come to pass? Had he been blessed with your superior enlightenment would he have seen things differently?
15 Mar 2006 @ 09:57 | Permalink
And what I am trying to say is that He knows what will happen with each choice we might make. But He still allows us to make those choices. I don’t see how you can say He knows for sure what is going to happen no matter what and at the same time, this is free choice. My belief is He knows each of us so well and knows the future, as far as each choice that CAN be made.
15 Mar 2006 @ 09:57 | Permalink
Mary, if God only knows the future “as far as each choice that CAN be made,” then why didn’t he show Nephi a vision of what would happen if Laman and Lemuel repented and turned their posterity back to the Priesthood authority of their younger brother? Why didn’t he show Nephi a future where the Gentiles DON’T cross the seas and discover the promised land? Why didn’t he show Nephi a vision of his posterity living in righteous bounty forever? All those were choices, or results of choices, that could be made.
The answer is that he knew what choices were going to be made and what choices weren’t going to be made. He showed Nephi what was actually going to happen–not just what had a pretty good chance of happening–because he knew it.
15 Mar 2006 @ 10:06 | Permalink
Why should He? He doesn’t need to tell us every little detail like that.
What if Laman and Lemuel had repented? Do you think He doesn’t take that into consideration?
It sounds to me like you are saying it’s all a foregone conclusion, so that’s that.
15 Mar 2006 @ 10:07 | Permalink
Re #66 -
I agree with Mormon. God has enough power and knowledge to bring about all of his purposes and prophecies for this planet.
15 Mar 2006 @ 10:08 | Permalink
Geoff, obviously you DON’T agree with Mormon. Mormon says the Lord knows EVERYTHING that is going to come to pass. He doesn’t say God has a pretty good method of predicting what’s going to happen because he knows what’s happening now. He says he knows ALL that is going to happen.
You’ve again let me know which scholarly pigeonhole you put me in (“classic compatibilist”). I’m afraid I don’t care what label you choose to affix to me or my belief.
15 Mar 2006 @ 10:12 | Permalink
I don’t think He predicts either. I think the method He uses is actually beyond our understanding, and therefore this conversation is moot.
Besides that, He already knew we would be discussing this.
15 Mar 2006 @ 10:14 | Permalink
I don’t know that I said I didn’t like stupid faith, didn’t I say blind faith in leaders was stupid faith? I don’t find child-like faith stupid, although I am frequently stupid myself.
The smartest people I know have a very simple faith in God and leave things in His hands.
Geoff I thought about this all night and this morning as I meditated and I think I’m right, God is outside of time. I don’t think it’s damnation. We can still choose, it’s just that in the future it’s already happened. He didn’t make it happen, I chose, it’s like He just watched the movie, so He knows how it ends.
I believe it, I do.
Also, He’s not only watching, He’s interacting and when I allow Him to influence me, He can. And He’s so good He can influence other people at the same time.
Although, you know, I do suspect we’re all just having a virtual experience tied up to computers and that’s how it’s all tailored to our personal growth and testing needs. It’s how I would do it if I were God.
15 Mar 2006 @ 10:17 | Permalink
But Mary, according to you and Geoff, he DIDN’T know we would have this discussion. Apparently he just knew that we would have the choice of whether or not to have this discussion, and made a prediction based on his limited knowledge. According to Geoff, the future isn’t knowable, so God was merely making an extremely educated guess when he showed Nephi the future. I’m sure glad he got it right! That would have been embarrassing.
15 Mar 2006 @ 10:20 | Permalink
Itbugaf: Geoff, obviously you DON’T agree with Mormon.
What I don’t agree with is your interpretation of Mormon’s words.
You seem to be hoping that God can pull off a paradox — that the future can be fixed and he can see it but that we will still be free. But that is the equivalent of hoping God can create a rock so heavy that he can’t lift it. I am saying that God knows everything that is knowable and that as such we need not insist that the paradox of a fixed future and free will co-exist.
If God can accomplish all of his purposes I fail to see why anyone would so be so adamant about how he pulls it off. Why not have faith that he can simply do it without the paradox?
15 Mar 2006 @ 10:47 | Permalink
ltbugaf
you need to start understanding Canadian humour.
And I didn’t quite say that. I said He knows all possibilities, so of course He knows about this conversation. You need to read my comments. I also said none of us truly understand HOW He knows things.
15 Mar 2006 @ 10:49 | Permalink
Geoff, I still just can’t see why you conclude that the future is fixed by God’s knowledge of it. I can’t see why you conclude that if the future is fixed, there is no freedom for those who are forming it.
Let me put this to you: There is going to be only one true version of tomorrow’s events. Regardless of the myriad possibilities that now exist, every one of the possibilities will, by the stroke of midnight, be reduced to only one actual happening. So as of midnight tomorrow, the day’s events will be “fixed.” Does the fact that only one thing is actually going to happen destroy the will of those who are going to make choices tomorrow? If not, why not? The future is fixed.
This is the nearest I can come, so far, to understanding what you mean by a “fixed” future. Only one will actually happen.
Now, given that truth–that only one version of tomorrow will be the real one–what difference does it make to anyone’s agency if some person knows ahead of time? Why get hung up on the time issue?
“If God can accomplish his purposes I fail to see why anyone would be so adamant about how he pulls it off.” Two points: (1) I don’t see how your position is any less “adamant” than mine. (2) I find it difficult to have total faith in a God who is lying when he tells us he knows all things that will come to pass. I find it difficult to have total faith in a God who is merely a cosmic gambler, using his vast but limited knowledge to make predictions which he can only hope will come to pass.
15 Mar 2006 @ 10:56 | Permalink
Okay, Geoff, this is the deal: God doesn’t see stuff before it happens. He sees stuff when it happens. He sees the past when it happens and the present and the future. It’s all present to Him.
Make sense? Doesn’t my virtual computer experience make more sense in light of my hypothesis?
He knows we are having this discussion because He’s here, He’s also there, because time stands still where He is and He can be every place at once. That’s how He can answer my prayers.
Because if not, how does He hear and answer all those billions of prayers and tend to all His children? Hello, I don’t really care about you guys, but He so needs to be there when I’m kneeling and tons of others are doing the same. I get God. You guys get the assistants. :) I’m sure they’re just as good. And He’d have to have billions of assistants.
Itgubar, aren’t you just thrilled to have me on your side helping you with your argument?
I have got to go finish the taxes. I think we have to pay, doesn’t that suck?
15 Mar 2006 @ 11:00 | Permalink
Itbugaf: There is going to be only one true version of tomorrow’s events. Regardless of the myriad possibilities that now exist
If there are real possibilities then the future is not fixed. It is like the difference between traveling by train and traveling by horse. If the future is fixed then there is only track. Another way to look at it is by considering the past (which is fixed). There are no real possible pasts for us — only hypotheticals. If the future is fixed then it is no different than the past and there are no more possible futures than there are possible pasts.
So as of midnight tomorrow, the day’s events will be “fixed.”
Exactly — but the point is that until the moment passes it is not fixed. Until the moment passes the possibilities remain open and unfixed.
what difference does it make to anyone’s agency if some person knows ahead of time?
If someone *knows* in advance what *will* happen then there are other possibilities of what *might* happen.
(1) I don’t see how your position is any less “adamant” than mine.
The crucial difference is that I am simply ruling out one way God accomplishes his purposes due to a paradox but I’m leaving all other possibilities open. In contrast, you are insisting on God accomplishing his purposes in only one way and ruling out all other possibilities.
(2) I find it difficult to have total faith in a God who is lying when he tells us he knows all things that will come to pass.
I don’t think God is lying, I think you are interpreting the revelations incorrectly and trying to insist on only one method for God to bring about all of his purposes.
15 Mar 2006 @ 11:33 | Permalink
But you do think God is a very well-informed gambler?
And why does it matter at what point tomorrow’s events become fixed? If they are ever to become fixed, then how can there be real freedom? The future–only one version of it–is definitely going to be the future and none of the other possibilities will matter. I don’t see why you’re so adamant in insisting that God is limited by time in the same way you are.
You’ve repeatedly told me I’m interpreting the scriptures wrong, but you haven’t told me what you believe the right interpretation is. There is a myriad of choices you can make freely: Did Mormon not really mean “all things”? Was he just wrong when he wrote it? Is the Book of Mormon a fraud?
15 Mar 2006 @ 11:41 | Permalink
The future is not fixed because God knows it, he knows it because it is fixed.
If God can see what choices we make in the future, it is because those choices we make are fixed in that future. If we are truly free to make any choice we want, then it is impossible for God to be able to know all future events.
You cannot have an open future and absolute knowledge of the future.
15 Mar 2006 @ 12:17 | Permalink
But you do think God is a very well-informed gambler?
No. Those are your words not mine.
If [future events] are ever to become fixed, then how can there be real freedom?
They become fixed after the moment of free choice, not before.
I don’t see why you’re so adamant in insisting that God is limited by time
Whether the future is fixed or open is unrelated to God’s relationship to time.
Did Mormon not really mean “all things”?
Yes, but that need not imply a fixed future — it could mean that God guides the general plot while allowing for improv on the details.
Is the Book of Mormon a fraud?
Hehe… Umm, no. But don’t take my word for it if you are having doubts. See Moroni 10:3–5. ;-)
15 Mar 2006 @ 12:21 | Permalink
Geoff, I think you can see why God’s relationship to time is relevant. If the future isn’t “future” to him, then the point in time at which something becomes fixed doesn’t matter to him. You’re hanging your whole theory on the fact that one thing happens after, not before another. Before and after don’t matter to God.
I know the description of God as a well-informed gambler is mine. I’m doing my best to summarize what you say you believe about him: that he doesn’t know future events (because they are unknowable) and that when he tells his Prophets what is going to happen in the future, he really doesn’t know whether he’s right or wrong. So he calculates the odds and chooses which future he thinks is most likely.
You say that Mormon, when he says that God knows “all things which shall come to pass,” may mean that God “guides the general plot.” In this context, I’m asking about what God knows, not how he guides. Mormon says God knows “all things which shall come to pass.” But you and Kim say God knows nothing which shall come to pass because the future isn’t knowable. Wouldn’t you say that’s a fairly big disparity? And if God has NO actual knowledge of the future, but is in fact just calculating the odds and betting on the best chance, then what is this stuff mentioned in Kim’s original post called “foreknowledge”?
15 Mar 2006 @ 12:40 | Permalink
The more I read through these posts, the more I think this may be the crux: Assuming (falsely but for the sake of argument) that I fit all the contemptuous labels you affix to me and that I do believe in a fixed future, what is less “free” about the choices made by someone whose future is fixed but whose agency is not interfered with, than the choices of someone who lives in a universe where God doesn’t know what’s coming next?
15 Mar 2006 @ 12:57 | Permalink
I would hardly call “compatiblist” a contemptuous label. The world has lots of compatibilists and I feel no contempt toward you for being one. I simply disagree with the compatibilist position. Further, I think that exhaustive foreknowldge can be a faith-crippling doctrine for many people and that concerns me.
15 Mar 2006 @ 13:53 | Permalink
After writing that, I realized I had gone overboard in citing you with contempt. :) My apologies.
Hope you’ll have some responses to 83 and to 40.
15 Mar 2006 @ 14:01 | Permalink
[...] Another interesting thread brought up the topic regarding how bound by time God is. [...]
15 Mar 2006 @ 14:57 | Permalink
Since there apparently aren’t any responses to 40 and 83, let me sum up my position:
Question: How much of the future does God KNOW?
Answer of the scriptures: God knew of Christ’s betrayal and death. God knew of Peter’s acts in the flesh. God knows ALL things from the beginning. God has foreknowledge of all things. God knows all the times appointed unto man. God knew all that would befall the Nephites. God knows the end from the beginning.
Answer of Geoff, Kim, Mary, et al: Nothing. God can’t know the future because the future isn’t knowable.
I think I’ll side with the prophets who wrote the scriptures.
16 Mar 2006 @ 04:56 | Permalink
Actually, you may want to go back and read my comments. I have never said God does not know the future. The closest I have come to saying that is comment in comment #81.
If God knows the entire future as you suggest, than we cannot be free to choose because he can only have absolute knowledge of the future if the future is absolute. If the future is absolute, then we cannot change it.
16 Mar 2006 @ 06:49 | Permalink
ltbugaf
Again you put words and meanings in my mouth. I have never once meant that. You are limiting Heavenly Father’s knowedge to the realm of human understanding. I am not going to repeat what I said as you don’t seem to understand it. But I will say again that we CANNOT know what method He uses because our understanding, our comprehension is so limited. You place human capablities on our God. That’s always going to backfire on you.
16 Mar 2006 @ 07:12 | Permalink
Kim, in 81 you say, “The future is not fixed because God knows it, he knows it because it is fixed.”
What fixes the future? The freewill choice of individuals. So free choice results in fixation of events, which in turn results in God’s perfect knowledge of those events.
You and Geoff keep saying that if the future is fixed and knowable, then there can’t be any freedom, as if that were somehow an undeniable axiom. Geoff even goes so far as to say that my denial doesn’t make it untrue. Of course, I know my denial doesn’t MAKE it untrue. It’s untrue all by itself. It’s a nonsequitur.
16 Mar 2006 @ 08:26 | Permalink
Mary, I really don’t think I’m the one who is placing human limitations on God. The ones doing that are those who say it’s impossible for him to know the future because, according to human perspective, it can’t be known.
16 Mar 2006 @ 08:27 | Permalink
Kim, re: 89–You say that if God knows the future then we have no real freedom of choice. So either you believe that God doesn’t know the future, or you believe that we have no freedom of choice. Surely that’s not a false dichotomy. Which side DO you take? No such thing as foreknowledge or no such thing as agency?
16 Mar 2006 @ 08:29 | Permalink
ltbugaf
But you are judging His comprehension by human standards and not by His standards which was way beyond our understanding.
What I am saying is, we cannot fully know what He knows or how He knows, because we don’t have the capacity for such understanding.
16 Mar 2006 @ 09:05 | Permalink
I certainly agree with you there. I don’t understand how God can know what hasn’t come to pass. But inasmuch as I accept the truthfulness of the scriptures, I clearly can’t deny that he does know it.
16 Mar 2006 @ 09:09 | Permalink
[...] The topic of predestination/foreordination has been discussed throughout the Bloggernacle (most notably at New Cool Thang, but here as well). [...]
31 May 2006 @ 16:24 | Permalink
Does anyone still read this? If so, I would like to share a few thoughts, but if no one is listening then I have no one to bounce ideas off of. So there’s no point-
10 Aug 2006 @ 09:14 | Permalink
Absolutely.
10 Aug 2006 @ 09:15 | Permalink
[...] it’s worth, we’ve talked about the first idea several times at Our Thoughts (see here, here, here, and here). AKPC_IDS += "2067,";Popularity: unranked [...]
30 Jul 2009 @ 08:12 | Permalink