Cowboys and Indians

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I just finished watching a Canadian made movie based on the true life og J.J. Harper, an Aboriginal Native who was murdered by RCMP in Manitoba in the late 80’s and how it was covered up. At the end of the movie it showed where each of the key players were at this point. It also stated that in Manitoba as of right now over 70% of all prison inmates are Aboriginal and yet only 15% of the entire population in MB is Aborignal. Hmmmmm but we have no preconceived judgements on Native people. Everyone is treated fairly in our country….

50 thoughts on “Cowboys and Indians

  1. Oh yes, we are a tolerant lot, aren’t we ? :)

    Interesting, I never realised until we moved to Lethbridge the extent of bigotry against First Nations people. It’s rampant here. Probably in more than one place in Canada (well of course it is). But then in the lower Mainland there is rampant bigotry against South Asians (well not only, but mostly).

  2. over 70% of all prison inmates are Aboriginal and yet only 15% of the entire population in MB is Aborignal

    We use those statistics in the US make a case for a racist legal system. I think it’s presumptuous argument. I could just as easily point to the same statistic and say.. “What a shame.. aboriginals are so prone to commit crimes.”

  3. Manitoba also has the highest concentration of aboriginal gangs in Canada. The nation-wide Indian Posse, for example started in Winnipeg and is headquartered there.

  4. thats too bad that you “would” say that Ryan as according to the movie last night cover ups in the legal system are high when it comes to Aboriginals. there is no such thing as Innocent until proven Guilty. The police force on a whole (in MB)are quick to blame and lay guilt on anyone who even resembles the descriptions given. I am not saying that there aren’t any actual guilty Aboriginals. People of all races commit crimes. But with stats that high I have to wonder how many are actually innocent and actually tell the legal system they are innocent and how many legal aid lawyers don’t go to bat for them because after all they are just dirty Indians and therefore must all be guilty of crime. Makes my blood boil

  5. Living on reserves for the past three years I’m more confused than ever when it comes to First Nations issues and possible solutions.

    Steal a people’s land, think of them as less than and enact government policies than demostrates that, try and erase their identity, take young children away from their families and place them in abusive situations. There are ripple effects from all the abuse, all the pain. We are a product of our own experiences and decisions and those of the people that came before us.

  6. It is too easy to use statistics to criticize current situations. I live in a community in Calgary that has a number of Native residents. They fall into two categories. Terrific people and drunks and criminals.
    Talk to the really neat people and get their impressions about what has happened to their people and you learn about individual responsibility.
    Talk to them about life on the reserves and you find out about corruption among band leaders and the lack of accountability. It is not a lack of money that causes the problems they have. I won’t go into details, but major changes need to be made.
    The reason the jails are so full of Natives can be traced back to what happens on the reserves. They are not able to assimilate into our society, and that is not our fault.
    As for the lower Mainland, there is good reason for the bigotry. When major crimes are committed by Asian gangs, and they (Asians) refuse to cooperate in suppressing them, they have no one to blame. That is not bigotry, it is self preservation at work.
    There are areas of my city that people do not want to live in because of the drugs, shootings, and gang activities that take place.
    I am not going to be made to feel like a bigot because I don’t trust them. I have befriended, and have a number of friends that are Asian, who feel exactly the same way.
    We have created a melting pot that unfortunately has allowed way too many people who don’t want to assimilate and live according to our standards.
    Of course, if you do want to assimilate and be a productive member of society, you may be deported from Canada. As a criminal, our doors are wide open.

  7. When you are referring to the Asian gangs of Vancouver, are you referring to gangs with roots in countries like Vietnam or China? If so, then that has nothing to do with bigotry toward immigrants from South Asia (India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, etc).

  8. Larry that is really one sided… using your words every human in every race could fall into the same category, either terrific or a drunken criminal. Being Native doesn’t mean you hold the corner of the market on that one.

    If it isn’t “our” fault that Natives have not been able to assimilate into the so called regular population whose fault is it? Theirs? Did anyone bother teaching them how to live off the reservation? Did any level of government make sure that there was a period of adjustment instead of throwing them in with the wolves?

    There are areas in my city that I would not want to live because of the high crime and real live prostitutes that fill every corner but these crimes are not commited by asian gangs or Aboriginals .. they are committed by Caucasions. Ever watch To Serve and Protect?

    I do agree with your comment that we have allowed way too many people into our country that do not want to assimilate or follow our standards. Last Canada Day celebrations we attended I commented on some young adults to please remove their hats when the anthem was being played and they scoffed and asked what for? I said it’s a sign of respect to your country and they laughed and said it’s not my country. After the anthem I asked them where they were visiting from and that I apologized for assuming they were Canadians (although I think it’s still a sign of respect to remove your hat for ANY national anthem) and they said oh we are Canadians, we live here but we don’t have to follow the rules. Gee I wonder where they learnt that from?

  9. Wrong. Pakistan has its gang elements as well. Sri Lanka I don’t know much about. India has a different culture, not prone to violence.
    The ultimate problem, though, is that those people who are prone to violence exhibit the greatest amount of bigotry to others from that part of the world (and us) and do cause them to gang up to protect themselves.
    It’s a vicious cycle that cannot be broken, because it is driven by bigotry and hate.
    I do not need to be made to feel like a bigot, though, if I decide that I don’t want anything to do with them. That’s a choice I am free to make. Those of like mindedness are free to make the same choice, even if they are from those cultures. I welcome them with open arms.
    If, in the future, a disproportionate number of them are in our jails, it will be due to their lawbreaking, and not due to Canadian bigotry. We live in a civilized society. Those who choose to live differently and abuse our system, get to pay the consequences, regardless of the numbers.

  10. In BC, the lower mainland, there is a lot of bigotry towards people just because of their cultural background, not because they come from places where there are large numbers of gangs.

    Larry, no one can make you feel like a bigot unless you feel you are. If you do not have prejudice against people strictly because of preconcieved notions without knowing them (individually or as a whole)then you aren’t bigoted. If you (or anyone for that matter) judges any person because of their religion, culture, skin colour, place of origin, etc, with a negative analysis, then that is bigotry. Of course you have the choice who you are willing to deal with and who you are not willing to deal with.

    My personal belief is that in EVERY culture there is good and bad. Every person has the capacity for good or bad, and this has nothing to do with skin colour or nationality or religion or parentage.

  11. “Wrong. Pakistan has its gang elements as well.”

    No one said there were no South Asian gangs in Vancouver. You may want to reread my previous comment to see what I was actually saying.

    That being said, I am very skeptical that racism in the Lower Mainland is an extension of fear toward gangs. After all, you don’t see the same amount of prejudice toward Caucasians despite the prevalence of white gang activity.

    In addition, I don’t see how a teenager sneaking up behind a 82-year-old Sikh man and knocking off his turban or a nine-year-old girl being chased and taunted by a group of white boys on bicycles are related to gang activity.

  12. It is unfair to use anecdotal evidence after the fact to prove a point.
    Of course what you are stating is cruel treatment, but it does not necessarily indicate bigotry.
    What children do is often cruel, to each other, and to others.
    What would constitute bigotry would be a widespread attitude of superiority of one race to another. You might be surprised to find out who is really bigoted under those rules.
    Sally indicated that the high stats in Manitoba were indicative of bigotry and it made her blood boil. That attitude is what I disagree with.
    If your wife had ever been surrounded on a residential street by a group of Natives demanding money, you too might be grateful that those who commit such atrocities were behind bars, whether white, Native, or otherwise.
    It does not equate to bigotry if a disproportionate number of one race is behind bars. It’s indicative of their ability to assimilate and live like civilized people.
    To argue bigotry is like arguing that professional sports is racist because of the disproportionate numbers of coloured players compared to white players. If you play by the rules and exhibit the proper behaviours you are rewarded.
    Ergo our jails are filled with those who choose to live outside our norms. They may be good people but they can’t exist among us and must be separated from us because of their behaviours.
    Kim, as for your statement about whites and gangs I disagree with you totally. As a society we do not want gangs period in our neighbourhoods. White gangs have always had to deal with that attitude.
    By the way, Mary, my sister and her family live in the lower Mainland among the very groups you talk about, and she knows bigotry first hand…and it doesn’t come from the whites.
    Sally, you would be surprised how much effort has been put forth to teach Natives, both on and off the reservation, about proper standards. When new homes were built on the reserves to improve their standard of living, it only took them a short period of time for them to destroy their homes (not all, but a large number) and return to substandard conditions. This has happened numerous times on the same reserves.
    That is not my observation, but one from a Native lady who has worked for decades on her reserve near Calgary to improve conditions. She has been involved at the highest levels in teaching her people and cannot understand their reluctance to improve.
    She puts the blame squarely on the tribal leaders who are too preoccupied with fattening their wallets to care about conditions on their reserve.
    There are reserves where just the opposite has occurred and they are great people to deal with, but we are concerned here with those who do not change or have a desire to improve their situation.

  13. “It is unfair to use anecdotal evidence after the fact to prove a point.”

    I would have used it in advance if I were able to predict what you will say.

    “Of course what you are stating is cruel treatment, but it does not necessarily indicate bigotry.”

    Not even if they are accompanied by racial slurs?

    “If your wife had ever been surrounded on a residential street by a group of Natives demanding money, you too might be grateful that those who commit such atrocities were behind bars, whether white, Native, or otherwise.”

    I have. And when I denied them any money, they began chasing me. I’ve also been cornered by a group of white males too. I did not react differently. I was no more grateful for the incarceration of criminals because of the first experience anymore than the second.

    “as for your statement about whites and gangs I disagree with you totally.”

    Really? You think whites are prejudicial to other whites because of white gang activity?

  14. Larry my friend,

    I think I agree with you regarding the misappropriation of the word “bigotry.” On the other hand, I would tread a little more carfully with regard to who is at fault for the failure of certain ethnic types to assimilate–and I understand that you are considering that “failure” without regard to ethnic background. I too agree that every individual has the personal responsibility to behave civily toward others–except in those cases where conflict is justified because of an oppresive regime and what-not.

    In the good old U.S. of A. it is blacks who comprise the majority of those incarcerated. I understand that our situation here is not perfectly analoguos to that of our friends from the north as Canada doesn’t share the ugly history of slavery. So while it is more obvious in our situation that I would be remiss if I were to lay the total blame of the black’s failure to assimilate at their own feet, the fact remains that it usually takes generations to overcome the negative effects of *any kind* of societal repression.

  15. “By the way, Mary, my sister and her family live in the lower Mainland among the very groups you talk about, and she knows bigotry first hand…and it doesn’t come from the whites.”

    I grew up in the lower mainland, and I saw it. Obviously not all caucasians did it, but yes, it was there. It’s naive to think caucasians aren’t bigoted. And yes there is bigotry from non whites as well. But it comes from EVERYONE, white or not. If she doesn’t see it then perhaps she doesn’t live in the thick of it. But it is certainly there. I saw it growing up, I saw it as an adult.

    I am not saying it is one sided. I am not saying there is justification for gangs, but again I say, there is good and bad in all cultures. All of them, all nationalities. Let’s not pin it on one group, or a few groups, and we have to take responsibility for our role as well.

    When we disdain them, how does that help solve the problems?

  16. I’m back from a long weekend.

    Kim, I’m not sure what you are arguing. Kids have used racial slurs from time immemorial. That in itself does not make them bigoted. They use words like “I hate you” and “I wish you were dead”, but they neither mean them nor appreciate what the words mean in finality.
    As for whites and white gangs, the answer is yes. Whites have rejected other whites who tend to have gang mentalities. This is not a racially motivated rejection.
    It is civilized people rejecting uncivilized behaviour.
    Mary, I’m not sure what you are arguing either. Some whites may be bigoted, but we are not a bigoted race as a whole. The only people on earth who even talk about tolerance, and human rights, are the whites, that is why we have surrendered so much of our immigration policy to non-whites. Try to have a human rights commission in any other country other than a white one, and make the commissioner a white as well, and see how far you get.
    We are too prone to pick on ourselves, and our friends, and are not critical enough of those of whom we ought to be critical.

    Let me give an example. Kofi Annan is the head of the U.N. As such you would think that he would have the welfare of all people as the foundation for his pronouncements et al.
    When Israel supposedly committed the atrocity at Qana(later proven to be false – in total) he quickly lashed out at Israel, and the United States. How terrible you people are.

    When the Sudanese rebels, or gov’t, slaughter literally hundreds of thousands of their own people – not a peep. When any nation, other than the coalition forces, commits an atrocity, the silence is deafening. When fake atrocities are conjured up, you can’t keep him and his cronies quiet.
    The efforts that we mete out to ensure that our countries are safe from gangs and terrorists are condemned as racist, not only by the very people who perpetrate the crimes, but also by us as Canadians.

    What does all this mean. The day is going to come, and very soon, when Sally’s concern will be realized and we will be attacked. This is not an issue on which we can be neutral. There is no neutral ground – see Spain.
    It will happen because we are so tolerant of those who don’t assimilate that they will know that they can do anything they want and we are powerless to stop them. They have already stated this case via Hezbollah.
    If the Americans had attacked the Hezbollah encampment back in 1982, after the marine barracks were destroyed, they would have sent a clear message to terrorists that they would be hunted and killed. Instead, Casper Weinberger cancelled the attack while the planes were enroute, and the missiles ready to launch.
    It was estimated that the total time required to complete the mission would be 90 seconds. He feared Arab backlash and cancelled the attack.
    Almost 25 years later we see Hezbollah, and Al Qaeda, seeing the Americans as paper tigers, because they know that as soon as a single drop of American blood is spilt that the press and public opinion will be to bring the troops home.
    They are counting on this in Iraq and Afghanistan. And now it is happening in Canada.

    So now they get it both ways. They chase them out of their back yard, and are free to attack us in America’s, Britain’s, and Europe’s front yard.

    Now what does this have to do with our discussion on bigotry?

    One of Osama bin Laden’s chief advisors was the mullah of the mosque in Richmond, B.C. If he was there, how many others are sitting in the shadows?
    Paranoia? Perhaps. Bigoted? Not at all. I tend to believe them when they state their goals and objectives from afar.

    Does that make all Muslims terrorists? Not even close.

    Does it create a certain angst in me when I see people demonstrate in favour of Hezbollah, or other radical groups. Absolutely. Because it lets me know that there are those among us who do not view the world the way we do, which is a desire for peace and peaceful co-existence.

    That being the case, I will close this argument, with a word to my friend Jack. Thomas Sowell, a well known Black author and scholar at the Hoover Institute, has a different perspective on the Black problem. He would be well worth studying.

    It’s too easy to use phrases like ‘bigotry’ when statistics are used. (A friend of mine from Manitoba says that there are more Natives there than whites. I haven’t checked it out, but I will.)
    Instead, we ought to be grateful that we have those in place who do the best they can to keep Canada a civil place to live. Does that mean they don’t make mistakes, or exercse bad judgment at times. Of course not. But I, for one, am grateful for what they do, that allows me and my family to live in relative security.

  17. As an after thought, I should point out that the U.N. has had observers (peacekeepers?) in Souther Lebanon since 1978, and did they report anything about what Hezbollah were doing? Just a thought.

  18. “Mary, I’m not sure what you are arguing either. Some whites may be bigoted, but we are not a bigoted race as a whole. ”

    I am aware of that. But it seems to me you are putting the majority of racism on non-whites. And this isn’t true. I have seen a lot of racism on all sides, from whites towards non whites, from non whites towards whites, from non whites towards other non whites, not of their race, religion, etc.

    What other people do, does not excuse what we do, as Canadians, as individuals, as caucasians. As Latter day Saints. Yes, I have seen racism in the church. That really bothers me.

    “But I, for one, am grateful for what they do, that allows me and my family to live in relative security.”

    So am I. But I am also teaching my children to respect other people for who they are, no matter how different. To not reject people based on the colour of their skin, or their religion or their cultural background. Laughing or mocking someone because of a cultural difference is still bigotry. Being hateful is bigotry, being condescending based on someone’s different culture is bigotry. It is demeaning and unbecoming to children of God.

    “has a different perspective on the Black problem.”

    This is what I mean ” the Black problem”. How about ” the Human problem”. We aren’t seperated by our skin colour, it’s only our eyes that do that, our hearts certainly should not.

  19. “Whites have rejected other whites who tend to have gang mentalities.”

    That’s not what I was referring to. I was referring to whites as a whole being stigmatised because some whites are in gangs.

    “A friend of mine from Manitoba says that there are more Natives there than whites.”

    According to the 2001 census, out of the province’s 1,103,695 people, 109,515 declared themselves as first Nations and 57,075 declared themselves as Métis. Those who declared European ancestry combined came to nearly 1 million on their own.

  20. Folks, let’s get our ducks lined up properly.
    When people are in fear of violence against themselves, their families and their communities they will respond accordingly. If you want to call it bigotry so be it. In my mind it doesn’t quantify.
    Mary, the “Black” problem is a human problem, but it is quantified as a Back problem in the United States. So let’s stop the nit picking.
    My argument wasn’t that there aren’t bigots, my argument was that as a white race it doesn’t wash.
    When you say “racism”, Mary, are you saying people hate others because of their skin colour, or are you saying that they are afraid of those people and are therefore racists?
    One equates as racist, the other has elements of self preservation because of statements made by leaders of other groups.
    Since there is often no clear delineation between those who avow violence, and those who do not, the lowest common denominator is to not want any of those people around.
    That is not out and out racism. Until their is clear evidence separating those who avow violence and those who do not, many are going to want to separate themselves from that society. That is pure human nature, and cannot be dismissed on the basis of epithets or slurs on those who make such decisions.
    We all want to live in peace. When there are those who want to perpetrate violence among us, and there is silence as to their presence, then those who are silent need to carry the burden. That is just common sense.
    If you teach your children to love their neighbour then good on you, but if you are not teaching them to beware of strangers bearing candy, then shame on you. The same holds true for what is happening in the world today.
    If we teach our children that only we can do wrong, then we become like Neville Chamberlain and ignore the reality of our times.

  21. I should also add this addendum.
    Please indicate which nations, other than white nations, that have implemented an immigration policy to allow others, not of their race, access to all the privileges of their nation, and have subsidized their coming in. Also show evidence of a human rights policy that favors the immigrants.
    If you want to understand racism on a national level, just look to other parts of the world.

  22. “Mary, the “Black” problem is a human problem, but it is quantified as a Back problem in the United States. So let’s stop the nit picking.”

    Ok it sounds like nit-picking, sorry about that, but it’s the labels I have problems with. I try to get away from labelling people in this way. So I wonder, do blacks in the US call it the “white problem”?

    “When you say “racism”, Mary, are you saying people hate others because of their skin colour, or are you saying that they are afraid of those people and are therefore racists?”

    Both. Haven’t you seen it? I have.

    “We all want to live in peace.”

    That’s right, we do. And when we stop seperating people and start remembering that the underlying truth is, we are all children of God, then maybe this will happen.

    “but if you are not teaching them to beware of strangers bearing candy, then shame on you. ”

    I do this as well. Just ask my children what we say about strangers. What I am saying is, I don’t differentiate between culture when it comes to this. Good and bad come in all cultures, religions and skin colours. I don’t teach my children to beware of the Native man walking down the street, any more than I would teach them to beware of the white man walking down the street. Every person we don’t know is to be treated with caution, for them, at least.

    I don’t teach my children that only we can do wrong, and I wasn’t saying that at all. I am saying that people in glass houses…well you get the picture (I hope). But when it comes to teaching my CHILDREN about this, I teach that everyone is to learn respect and understanding, no matter who they are, and that WE are responsible for OUR actions. I don’t say oh look at what the bad terrorists did and look, they are Muslim. We teach them that people do bad things sometimes and they think it is because it is what they are supposed to do, or what they think they should do. I don’t bring religion or culture or skin colour into it. My children are 7, 5 and 10 months. How on earth would I explain “oh this black man killed that girl, he is a bad man”. Why would it matter what colour the skin is or what his background might be? It doesn’t. Children do not divide people into races or cultures or colours, we do that as adults and then pass it on to them. For them, it is a human being doing something, good or bad.

    I am certainly not ignoring the reality of our times, and not sure where you misunderstood my words to mean that. What I am saying and continue to say is that I am not going to teach my children to differentiate between people because they are a different religion, colour or culture. That they are automatically the enemy, that they should automatically be discriminated against because of this.

  23. Mary, I laud your efforts.
    Will you tell me what the mother’s of the Hezbollah are teaching their children. Please tell me what the mothers who are out protesting in Canada, in favour of Hezbollah, are teaching their children.
    For those who embrace radical tenets, how do we differentiate them on the street from the really good Muslims?
    Ask the Sunni and the Shii in Baghdad. They can’t tell the difference. How in the world can we. That is what is causing the major concerns.
    The death of that Muslim in the Tim Horton’s washroom, recently, in Toronto wasn’t a murder or a natural death. It was a suicide bomber who failed. The gov’t didn’t want that to get out, because they feared the consequences.
    What if he had succeeded and they hadn’t warned us. What are the consequences of that?
    The fact that women are now suicide bombers only adds to the problem.
    Even though we want to love them as bothers and sisters, it takes 2 sides to make it work, and are you sure that all of those in Canada want to make it work.

    “We teach them that people do bad things sometimes and they think it is because it is what they are supposed to do, or what they think they should do.”
    My sense is that you should teach your children that these people are evil and that is why they do what they do. There is nothing in the Koran that teaches them, or justifies them, in doing what they do.
    Without addressing the problem, without speaking in real terms, we are setting our children up for disaster.
    Keep up the good work. You will be successful. Pray that all mothers everywhere will do the same.

  24. Larry

    You can’t differentiate these things. But if I teach my children to fear and hate everyone, what does that show them? What about the good people? There was a time when many Americans thought all Soviets were hate-filled evil minded individuals. Remember what Canada did to the Japanese in during World War II? That was out of fear.

    Think about this, do you truly believe that the mothers of the fanatical groups are (all of them) teaching their children to hate? A few might be, just as a few white North Americans are teaching their children to hate. But most aren’t. People make their own choices. Yes there are fanatics. They are all over the place, but there are good people too. Do good people have children who make evil choices? I would think so. Heavenly Father has children who have done so.

  25. Mary, you missed my point. It was not that all are evil. I believe quite the contrary.
    However, those who perpetrate evil deeds are evil. If they support evil doers then they too are evil. There is no middle ground on this one.
    And yes,they teach their children to hate and to become martyrs, because they then bring honour to the family.
    And even if they don’t teach them to hate, the fact that they tolerate their children being taught that in their schools makes them just as culpable.
    All we need for evil men to rule is for good men and women to do nothing.

  26. “However, those who perpetrate evil deeds are evil. If they support evil doers then they too are evil. There is no middle ground on this one.”

    I don’t deny that. But let’s not focus on the middle easterners as having the monopoly of this. They don’t. It’s spread throughout the world.

  27. Larry,

    I googled Thomas Sowell and have been reading some of his stuff. I like him. The one criticism that I have of his approach at this point (I need to read a little more in order to make a more informed criticism) is that he seems a little too darwinistic in his world view, i.e., I’m not sure that one can get to the bottom of human motivation without acknowledging that humanity’s sense of morality tends to operate above the purview of survival mechanisms.

  28. The Muslim who died at the Tim Horton’s, was he trying to kill the people inside the restaurant?

    What if he had chosen a restaurant where you live instead of one in Toronyo? How would that effect your views on equal rights for Muslims?

    What if Kim was in the restaurant and a Muslim was able to set off his bomb, would you still teach your children to love Muslims?

    From reading the comments posted, it seems to me the Muslims do not care if Canada is Nuetral, they still want to kill.

  29. “What if Kim was in the restaurant and a Muslim was able to set off his bomb, would you still teach your children to love Muslims?”

    “George” you are missing my point. It is has nothing to do with him being Muslim, it has to do with him being a radical fanatic. You are equating their actions with their religion. They (the terrorists) are twisting their religion to meet their desires. It is NOT their religion.

    A question for you “If a caucasion set off a bomb in a restaurant a loved one of yours was at, would you still teach your children/grandchildren to love caucasions?”

    Heavenly Father tells us to seperate the person from the action. It seems to me, you have a hard time doing it. You seem cover all Islamic people with the same umbrella. Why don’t you study the religion for a bit before deciding it is a religion of fear and hatred. It is not. There have been/are and will be fanatics of the Christian faith too.

  30. A question for you “If a caucasion set off a bomb in a restaurant a loved one of yours was at, would you still teach your children/grandchildren to love caucasions?”

    I don’t believe I have mentioned a person’s race, I have mentioned a religion. A Muslim can be Middle Eastern, Black or even White. I believe I heard two of the people being held in England are white women. One of the white women has a child and the other white woman is pg. They are killers because of the religion they believe in.

    So answer this question, would you befriend a Muslim knowing there is a possibility he wants to kill your husband or your children?

    Would you risk their lives so you can be politically correct?

  31. Ok, let me re-phrase…” If a Christian set off a bomb in a restaurant a loved one of yours was at, would you still teach your children/grandchildren to love Christians?”

    “They are killers because of the religion they believe in.”

    And where do you get this idea? Show me where in the Koran it says murder is permissable?

    It has nothing to do with politically correct. It has to do with following the counsel of the Lord and loving my neighbour, or at least trying to. He doesn’t give us a loophole for religion.

    And I have known, been friends with Muslims. None of them wanted to kill me or my family. “George” you need to educate yourself better. You are letting the propaganda dictate what you believe, instead of the truth.

  32. This discussion is almost becoming irrelevant.
    Two things are important here. Not all Muslims are terrorists – in fact the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists.
    The recent arrests in Britain were brought to bear because of work done in Pakistan and because a local Muslim noticed the behaviour of one of the major suspects was suspicious and notified the authorities.
    The efforts of that single individual confirms my faith in the Muslim people to police their own.
    On the other hand, Dearborn, Michigan is a hotbed for Islamic extremists. Would I want them as my neighbours – definitely not. Would I trust them to expose those seeking to do harm to me and my family. Absolutely not.
    When they get out and shout Hezbollah slogans, and villify anyone who opposes that radical approach to Islam, a completely different emotion swells up inside me.
    All the Muslims I have met and befriended were a delight to be around. I do not worry about them.

    I do worry about those who refuse to assimilate. It is well known that terrorist cells exist among us, but until they actually break the law they are free to live in our society. That is fine. But when they do break the law, have we the guts to deal with them appropriately?
    We have to do a better job of being able to distinguish between those who want to be here for freedoms sake, and those who seek to destroy us.
    They have difficulty in Baghdad. Can it be any easier here?

    Perhaps a clue would be who they support in protests and who they call names.

  33. I heard on the radio driving home that some Muslims were arrested with 1000 cell phones. The police thought they were trying to blow up a bridge. When I got home on TV was the wife of one of these men and she was saying the police could not prove it. Why would someone from Dallas be in Michigan with 1000 cell phones and no reason why they have them? The police also said the chargers had been disposed of why the Muslims were arrested. Do you believe this is all a mistake?

    Would they have been arrested if they were LDS?

  34. A couple of websites that might be of interest to all.
    1)Little Green Footballs.com
    2)Small Dead Animals.com

    Perhaps they might provide some answers.

  35. I think you can find significant instances of evil and violent behavior in all groups of people. When you start to use those instances or anomalies as a basis of pre-judgement that falls across the entire group that is bigoted and evil in itself even if it is done for safety reasons. Walk in the shoes of the 99 that are abused, avoided, interned, and imprisoned for the one that went beserk or worse, the ones that “might” go berserk.

    If I used that line of reasoning and applied it across all the groups that have dangerous individuals that can not be easily identified from non-dangerous individuals, think of what I miss of this life.

  36. mtnnomad,

    If you are referring to my comments then you are at best disingenuous.
    When those who are avowed leaders of certain groups publicly announce that their objective is to annihilate me, my chidren, my grandchildren, and my race, and their followers cheer, protest, and in every way show support for them in my hometown and other centres in my nation, tell me how stupid I am to be cautious.
    We are so caught up in being politically correct and nice that we ignore the realities of life. Neville Chamberlain had that attitude as well and you know where that got him and the rest of Europe.
    If you ignore reality then suffer the consequences. You won’t need to leave a journal for your future generations…there won’t be any.
    This is not a case of dangerous individuals, this is a case of mass hysteria masquerading as religion.

  37. Larry,
    I guess we see the world in different ways. I can’t make a jugdement about groups from the ranting of certain leaders and their supporters. Extremists get the airtime. Too me, it’s a bit like judging Christians due to the rantings of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and abortion clinic terrorists.

  38. You are leaving a whole lot out of your example. Muslims want to kill you and your family. It does not matter if they are the suicide bomber or the family that provides the “tithes” to support their terror schemes. They are all guilty of being criminals.

    I admidt there are Muslims that act normal but who really knows which one is the one who will kill your baby?

    I think the USA should consider passing a law that all meetings in a Mosque have to be recorded just like in LDS Temples. Then if they preach their death and destruction, we try them in a court of law, find them guilty and put them in prison.

    I know it is not PC but we should use the technology to protect ourselves from them.

    What you did not know the US government made the church record temple rites?

  39. George,

    Thanks for the heads up. I’m not afraid of Muslims, but your beliefs concerning this issue are frightening.

    “What you did not know the US government made the church record temple rites?”

    You seem to be making some assumptions about me here. Please don’t. The recording doesn’t concern me. Maybe it should, but it doesn’t.

  40. Would someone explain to me the doctrine of Shahada to me in a way that causes me not to fear.
    Also, while you are at it, please explain the comments coming from so many of their mullahs with respect to the destruction of the West.
    While you are at it, perhaps you can explain the contradictory comments of the leader of CAIR on a television interview and his rantings at a rally in support of Hezbollah.
    Just a few questions that I think deserve answers before dishing people’s concerns.
    This gets to the point I made earlier about the need for our Muslim friends to be vigilant in their communities. Large in number, or small, there are those from that community that mean to do extreme harm to us – and even their own, because death is better than life.

  41. Mary continues to point out that she believes the Koran does not teach death to non believers. I guess I would have to read the Koran to know that kind of answer. Regardless of what the Koran teaches, these Muslims preach death to us. Koran or not Koran, I still theink they are evil and need to be watched.

  42. “Koran or not Koran, I still theink they are evil and need to be watched.”

    All Muslims? That is very sad that you feel that way. Very sad. And you say you are not racist.

  43. Obviously, all the comments are coming from caucasion people with perfect lives who do not know the cause and effects of suffering, because they never went through it. Also it is very ignorant to say it is an Aboriginals fault that they brought it upon themselves. you need to wake up and open your blue eyes and figure it out!, it’s in the past, something middle schools and university did not teach; about the real canadian history about Aboriginal people, I suggest you people do some readings written by real authors who know about aboriginal people before you make such ignorant remarks. It’s called colonization and residential schools i suggest you people do some research or talk to real indians who know about the real truths of why Aboriginal people populize the correctional institutions and live in poverty. Here’s some good advice take classes in Indigenous studies at universities, could help to open your narrow mindedness.

  44. Tiffany

    Not sure where you get the idea referring to “all of the comments”. Read them all and you will find that most of them are not blaming First Nation people nor ever have for what was done to them.

    You are right, this is not taught in school (or certainly was not when I was in school) but I am fortunate enough to teach my own children and they will learn the truth. Are learning it. And my children have aboriginal ancestry.

    I don’t have blue eyes nor is my life perfect. Pretty good, yes, but never was it perfect. Nor are most people. Again, racism come from everywhere. Not just from one angle.

  45. Tiffany said: “Here’s some good advice take classes in Indigenous studies at universities, could help to open your narrow mindedness.”

    Another option would be to follow the example Moses gave in the OT. Kill the aboriginal people so your children do not have to deal with them.

    Another option would be for the Government to stop supporting the aboriginal people and allow them to take responsibility for their own lives.

  46. “I admidt there are Muslims that act normal but who really knows which one is the one who will kill your baby?”

    I admit there are white males that act normal, but who really knows which one is the one who will kill your baby?

    I admit there are Scottish grandmothers that act normal, but who really knows which one is the one who will kill your baby?

    I admit there are apostate Mormons from Arizona that act normal (on occasion when they aren’t spewing racist filth) but who really knows which one is the one who will kill your baby?

  47. ltbugaf said: “I admit there are apostate Mormons from Arizona that act normal”

    What are yu talking about?

  48. I’m talking about the disgusting bigotry that you continue to spread on this page.

  49. This states the Rcmp shot him, but it was the Wpg Police who had dunnit, lol done it.
    the Rcmp have been dealing with us for years, they have experience. The Police are just new to us so they do not know, it seems they dont even bother.
    Us natives are trying to support ourselves, it is the government that seems reluctant to let us be..If it were up to us we be surviving like we always have been.

  50. “If it were up to us we be surviving like we always have been.”

    This is highly debatable.

    I have serious doubts that any of the aboriginal peoples of the Americas would be living even remotely like they ‘always have been’ given their druthers.

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