Without chastening, we forget the Lord

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I came across Hel. 12:3 today during my scripture study:

And thus we see that except the Lord doth chasten his people with many afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him.

That’s just sad.

8 thoughts on “Without chastening, we forget the Lord

  1. I agree TylerM.

    If you read the verses prior to verse 3, which places verse 3 in context, it makes perfect sense. This is a very telling scripture on the nature of societies and of the natural man.

    As for what Kim said on the matter, I agree, it is kinda sad that it always seems to have to come to that point.

    On a positive note in the latter verses we read this:

    22 “…therefore, for this cause, that men might be saved, hath repentance been declared.
    23 Therefore, blessed are they who will repent and hearken unto the voice of the Lord their God; for these are they that shall be saved.

    Cheer on for the principle of repentance and for the atonement of our Redeemer! :)


  2. What do we make of Isaiah 45:7?

    7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

    I agree with Tyler M. also but … I don’t think it is true that if we were always good and righteous we would be without some hardship.

    Opposition is required and adversity is strengthening. If God created everything how do we account for evil?

  3. Isaiah 45:7

    With verses like this, because they never ‘sit right’ with me, I’m always sure to try and check up on the translation of the word evil from it’s original source. I’m not a scholar by any means but I have found a little information.

    Hebrew is an ancient language that was much more limited in scope than say Greek. Frequently, the same words were used in several contexts to mean different things. For example the English the word blue could mean a color or someone feeling depressed.

    The word evil is translated from the hebrew ra’ and it’s used throughout the Old Testament with different meanings. It is used many times to mean something morally evil or hurtful (Job 35:12, 1 Sam 30:22, etc.) but also can mean unpleasant experience (Gen 47:9 and Prov. 15:10). It’s used to describe fierce beasts (Lev. 26:6), and even bad or inferior fruit (Jer 24:3) It has been used to represent such things as adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, and misery.

    Having read this, I feel more assured that this interpretation in Isaiah 45:7 is possibly misleading.

    One commentary I read stated this:
    ***** The context of Isaiah 45:7 makes it clear that something other than “bringing moral evil into existence” is in mind. The context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9). That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,” Isaiah 45:7 is presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.*****

    Also if you refer to the footnotes offered for that verse, it points you to such scriptures as Amos 3:6 (pay attention to the footnote) / Alma 5:40 / Moroni 7:12, giving perspective.

    How do we account for evil? **personal thought** **shrug**

    God did create all things which are temporal first in the spiritual, therefore all things spiritual have a temporal or physical counterpart. But who says that evil is a “thing” that was created. Who says goodness is a ‘thing’ that was created? They are often treated as though they were tangible objects that God formed, but we know from scripture that God does not work in darkness so to say He created ‘evil’ is not scriptural. (see again script ref above) Could they not instead fall under the definition of eternal laws or principles, alongside others such as Mercy and Justice, being brought forth through the circumstance of choice and action? As eternal principles (ie)Good and Evil, they would belong to a natural order and balance of life which permeate all spheres of existence, at least those that we have been made aware of. For instance, we see in the grand council and war in pre-existence the resultant goodness at choosing to accept the Fathers plan, and we read also of the resultant evil displayed by the selfish choice of the adversary. Even in those infinite halls the principles of Good and Evil were mobilized as a natural result of choice and action.

    If a person chose to drop an apple gravity as a natural law, according to this sphere of existence, will cause it to fall. Our choices, our actions, can similarly call forth the eternal principles of Good or Evil. It conveniently takes the blame off of us to stand back and declare, “How could God create evil!?”, when we are the catalyst for good or bad not God. We have the ability, through our choices, to enact many laws both infinite and finite for our good or our detriment.

    Peace >8D

  4. I’m going to disagree with Tyler.

    All those things are going to happen regardless of righteousness. The fact that they do happen helps remind us.

    You can do everything right, remember God every minute of every day, and they will still happen.

    All that verse is saying is that without those things happening, many of us who would otherwise remember will eventually forget.

    1. For a long time, I’ve thought that ancient prophets didn’t predict God would send an increase of earthquakes, for example, in the last days, but rather saw that there would be an increase in earthquakes prior to the coming of Christ.

      Same goes with the star at Jesus’s birth. God didn’t put it there to show where/when Jesus was born, but rather caused him to be born where and when the star was.

  5. In some instances you are probably right. I mean I would never put myself in the camp that says that all natural disasters are God’s way of reminding the people to be righteous. I also don’t think he is restricted to planning around natural disasters/occurances. There are definately times when God puts natural disasters in place to remind the people or to cleanse the earth. The flood and the natural disasters following the death of the Savior both in Jerusalem and in the Americas, I feel are great examples of God’s control over the elements for the purpose of chastening the people.

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