I have heard it said that the reason most Blacks had the priesthood withheld from them throughout the late 1800s and the mid 1900s was because they were cursed with the Curse of Cain. If this is true, why did Spencer W. Kimball not mention such a curse had been lifted when gave the Official Declaration that all worthy male members of the Church could hold the priesthood?
Curse of Cain
bill, are you a son of Adam?
same deal.
Your comment makes no sense. 8 people were on the ark. Noah/wife, 3 sons/wives. How many generations are you going to add for your remarks to make sense?
A family we know had a black family from New Orleans move in next door and this family decided to be a good neighbor and invited the family to eat dinner with them. during the course of the evening the mother went to check on her 6 year old daughter and found the black teenage son raping her 6 year old in the bathroom.
If this had been your family and your daughter, how would it effect your views regarding the curse of cain?
How about Blacks in general?
How about blacks from New Orleans?
Last year was the largest mass migration of blacks ever.
Is it a good thing or a bad thing?
Bill
What does this have to do with being black? There are good people and not so good people of African descent, European descent, Asian descent, etc etc. No one has the monopoly on righteousness or unrighteousness.
It’s awful that this happened to the family you know (it’s rather amazing the amount of horrific events that happen to you or to people you know) however,I find it hard to believe it had anything to do with the family being black, or being from New Orleans. There is a recently released child molester who lives in our city. He’s white.
Oh and talking about mass migrations, blacks don’t have the monopoly on that either, let’s see…all the European immigrants to the Americas when it was discovered?
Are you racist Bill? I certainly hope not.
“If this had been your family and your daughter, how would it effect (sic) your views regarding the curse of cain?”
The only thing it would affect would be my views regarding their son.
“How about Blacks in general?”
Sexual depravity is not caused by melanin.
“How about blacks from New Orleans?”
Nor is it caused by location.
“Last year was the largest mass migration of blacks ever. Is it a good thing or a bad thing?”
Definitely bad. Other than the rebuilding of New Orleans, I am not sure what else good came out of Katrina hitting the city.
Bill, instead of focussing on the “mass migration of blacks” perhaps you might recall the devastation that Katrina caused in New Orleans and other areas. The homes and lives that were destroyed. Instead of wondering whether the “mass migration of blacks” was a good or a bad thing you might have some compassiion for the people who lost so much, who are still, to this day and who will be for a long time, trying to rebuild their lives and their homes. Their whole city gone, devastated. Many family members, friends and pets lost without any trace. How tragic and sad. This had nothing to do with the colour of their skin.
You know, colour is only in the eye of the beholder. Look inside (physically) and people are pretty similar. Not much difference. As I said, black, white, orance, purple, blue, whatever, has nothing to do with one’s behaviour.
I find it interesting you would suggest I am a racist for asking a question. I believe the part of the world you live in is for the most part a lilly white world. I expect that I am far less racist than you would be. The most racist group of people in the US I have ever known happen to be the liberals that live in the NE section of the USA.
I have nieces and nephews that have chosen to marry Blacks and have children with them. Same thing with hispanics. I believe I know what I speak about.
We (the people in the area I live in) took in large numbers of Katrina victims and we feed and housed them and all those feel good kind of things.
This is the part the news does not tell you about. We hold job fairs for them, provide transporation and no one shows up. Our store owners are shot and killed for a few dollars by Katrina victims, our courts are overloaded with crimes being commited by Katrina victims. Violence in our schools by Katrina victims has caused the police to patrol the schools to keep teachers and students safe from these thugs.
The Mayor of New Orleans had a vision that the Lord destroyed New Orleans so it could become a Black City and they (Blacks) elected him to be Mayor again. In almost any other part of the world, racist talk like that would get you not elected.
This week, I was in a car with other people and a disable Mexican woman was crossing the street in front of us when 2 black males also crossed the street. A female in the car wanted us to wait until the black males had passed the mexican women to make sure the black males did not attack the disable woman. I found this very interesting since the woman that wanted us to wait defends people who are accused of crimes.
I asked her why she assumed the black males would attack a disabled woman and she said her case load is full of black people from New Orleans who have no morals. She admitted that if the men had been white or hispanic, she would not have been concerned and she is very liberal.
Blacks make up less than 10% of the population and yet they make up over 25% of our jail population.
Just asking a question, if your government leaders had welcomed the people of New Orleans into your city and these things where happening to people you know, would you change your views? Would you think there might be something to the Curse of Cain? Is there a reason the children of Cain did not live with the other children of Adam? Would you be proud of your son or daughter if the married a black? Would you love and be proud of black grandchildren?
“I believe the part of the world you live in is for the most part a lilly white world”
No actually it is not. We have a lot of First Nations people here. And where I grew up there was a high percentage of non-white people, mostly of Asian, Indian descent. I went to school with a lot of them.
You would be wrong. I am not racist in the least, nor ever have been. I was taught, as a child to respect all people, to not judge people for their culture, religious beliefs, and most certainly not for the colour of their skins.
“if your government leaders had welcomed the people of New Orleans into your city and these things where happening to people you know, would you change your views?”
No, actually they would not. I cant’ help it. It is ingrained in me to allow people the benefit of the doubt. If there is a higher percentage of black people in the prison system, then perhaps there is a reason, and could that be the way they are EXPECTED to act?
I know many people helped the Katrina victims, I am not suggesting that did not happen. However, when people STILL look at people, based on the colour of their skin as being more likely to commit crimes, or to have less morals, that still speaks more for the people who have these beliefs than the individuals themselves.
Kim had a boss who had a hard time getting out of his stereotypical beliefs. They were cleaning the carpets of a man who lived close to a Native reserve and the man worked at the local high high school. Kim’s boss automatically assumed this man was a janitor at the school, just because he was Native. Well, he was wrong, because the man was a teacher at the school.
But it shows you how attitudes and expectations show minorities that they are considered less, less everything by so many people who decide they “aren’t racist”. And I didn’t say you were racist, I said I hoped you were not. But when you dwell on the statistics and focus on “black crimes” it certainly leads one to believe that is the case.
I would certainly be proud of my children being married to someone who was not white. I would be more interested in whether they were good individuals, worthy to enter the temple, etc, whatever the colour of their skin.
Oh yes, if I had black grandchildren I would CERTAINLY be happy and pleased and proud of them. HOw could I not be? They are mine! They are children.
Kim and I would like to adopt one day. We are not concerned about race. I would love my non-white children just as much as my white children. Just as Heavenly Father loves His children without worrying about the colour of their skin.
Living near Asians and Natives cannot be compared to living near Blacks. We also have Asians and Indians living here and the asians for the most part are hard working people like the mexicans with strong family values. The problems the Indians (native) have is that for generations, the government has supported them. Many of the Blacks have the same problems with too much government support and little chance for jobs.
Many people will not hire Black males because the chance of being robbed by them is really quite high. Call me a racist but it is a fact. You can se eit often. A fast food restuarant is robbed and they catch the robbers and one of them works at the restaurant. The examples go on and on.
Look at Africa – Mass crimes, mass murders, mass aids, mass problems.
You can always find someone who is different but as a whole, is there a reason the children of cain have such a higher crime rate than other races?
Are the crime laws based on skin color? Are perhaps on income?
“Look at Africa – Mass crimes, mass murders, mass aids, mass problems.”
Well let’s look at who brought Blacks out of Africa…hmmm…white western countries.
Yes, I heard that argument years ago from the friend of my sister. When she (this friend) came back from visiting her grandparents in North Carolina, she complained about how “lazy, immoral and criminal” that black people were. We listened, appalled. We DID have black schoolmates. People who were friends. I asked her how she could say that, knowing the black people she knew. Her comment was ” Well, blacks in the States are different than here”. Yeah, ok. That doesn’t hold a lot of water.
And yes you can “compare”. There are Asian gangs in Vancouver, in BC, and you will often here people complaining about it. I take it you don’t know Canada that well.
“Many people will not hire Black males because the chance of being robbed by them is really quite high.”
You get that exact same attitude here about First Nations people. And yes, I will call you racist because you are lumping everyone of a certain race into a specific category. And that doesn’t help people who ARE honest, forthright and want to live a normal, happy life when they are confronted with this type of racism on a daily basis. Ask any native person here if they think they are discriminated against for the same reasons and you will get a resounding yes. And also Asians and Indians (I was not referring to natives, I was referring to people from India) and other mid-eastern people will express the same view. I saw it all the time.
I agree that the government giving extreme handouts to First Nations people is not good, for them mainly. It happens here, has happened for years. Not a good thing for their own sakes. But this doesn’t stop the racism that is so prevalent. People have their biases and these biases can not only be destructive, but deadly.
Maybe when people stop looking at skin colour, or income level, or culture, or religion then we can start getting along.
I have a question for you Bill. How do you know that everyone who reads Our Thoughts is white? You would be wrong if you think that.
I believe all people have racism in them towards those who are different. You/them may not want to admidt it but it is true. Sometimes we do not realize we are being racist. For example, I have seen good latter day saint parents not allow their children to play with non lds children. This is a from of racism.
At church I see a person who comes to church reking of tobacco and I watch peoples faces as they smell the stench. The way they then treat that person is sometimes racist.
I would hope that not everyone who reads this is white. I would hope that those of other races that have an opinion would express them. The way to learn and grow is to listen to each other so that we are not different any longer.
I would love to hear from a black person why they think whites have an opinion they are lazy.
“Living near Asians and Natives cannot be compared to living near Blacks.”
…and after this comment, the chance of any rational discussion went right out the window.
“I believe all people have racism in them towards those who are different.”
If you use this belief to justify how you feel, that’s your prerogative. You can think what you do, of me. But suffice it to say, I have never had any sort of negative feelings towards any other person based on the colour of his skin, his cultural background or his religion or race. Thus, I am not racist. Whatever you may say or think. Just because I am white, doesn’t mean I have to automatically be opposed to people who aren’t like me. I am not.
And speak for yourself, not all white people think black people are lazy. And no, not everyone who reads this is white. But I haven’t heard any non-white person go on about white people being more inclined to be criminal or immoral the way you have gone on about black people being more likely to be so.
You really love to take things out of context. Go back and read what was written. I have not said I support the items you mention. Mentioning the truth does not make a person a racist.
I would love to hear from a black person from New Orleans as to why they would vote in a racist mayor.
I would love to hear from a black woman why she would have children from multiple men and not be married to any of them. Why such a large % of black men spend time in prison.
I would love to hear from a black man why he feels it is ok to rob and steal from his employer.
Why would a white female assume she needs to add things which have not been included. For example, I did not write not all white people think black people are lazy. You added that just to give your words a different twist from what was really said. You do this quite often and then try to take the high moral road for yourself. Why do you do this?
“Mentioning the truth does not make a person a racist.”
You stated statistics. However, you use it as a justification for being wary of ALL black people. Why not search out other truths? About white people?
There are many white women who have children from multiple men. These same arguments can be used in almost any race.
You know, I don’t take the high moral road, to consider myself better than anyone else. I am well aware of my failings (which you are not, since you do not know me), what I do have a tendency to jump on is when people attack, discriminate and ridicule other people.
This is what you said “I would love to hear from a black person why they think whites have an opinion they are lazy.” (see #162)
Also your words :”Blacks make up less than 10% of the population and yet they make up over 25% of our jail population.”
And: “Many people will not hire Black males because the chance of being robbed by them is really quite high. Call me a racist but it is a fact. You can se eit often. A fast food restuarant is robbed and they catch the robbers and one of them works at the restaurant. The examples go on and on.
Look at Africa – Mass crimes, mass murders, mass aids, mass problems.”
You say ” call me a racist but it is a fact”. I would like to see where you get your statistics from and how you fail to see that criminal and immoral activity isn’t just a problem in one race. White people also have this problem. As do many other races. Oh wait, guess what, it is a HUMAN race problem.
“Why do you do this?”
Because I can’t stand bigotry.
As I understand the topic on this thread it is about the curse of Cain. Many LDS believe that Blacks are the literal descendants of Cain. The questions are about do these items reflect the belief in the Curse of Cain and do they justify the belief?
They are not expressed as my beliefs.
Interesting topic.
Before the ban was lifted on Blacks holding the Priesthood, if a worthy white male wanted to marry a Black woman in the Temple, would this had happened?
If Church leaders would have denied the marriage, then would the denial have been based on her skin color?
Would denial of a Temple Marriage simply based on one’s skin color be considered Racist?
Would the Curse of Cain had been legitimate excuse? Is there really a Curse of Cain?
My understanding is that no Blacks were able to attend the temple, priesthood holders or otherwise.
If denial of a temple marriage before 1978 was not based on not having the Priesthood (white male),
what was it based on?
Was the Curse of Cain in effect before 1978 or was it simply a matter of the Church prior to 1978 being racist or something else?
Were the desendants of Cain really cursed with the Curse of Cain as taught by LDS leaders or not?
First of all, as we already discussed previously, the interpretation of the Curse of Cain referring to Blacks is a fallacious opinion.
Secondly, it was not just a temple marriage ban. It was a ban on all temple ordinances.
Third, this ban was based on skin colour.
Lastly, the interpretation (though unsubstantiated) of the Curse of Cain may have been the basis for banning temple ordinances from Black members.
I was an adult in 1978 when the ban on blacks was lifted and my memory is different from the current offical position.
Blacks were allowed to take the Sacrament, pray, pay tithing and attend church meetings. Almost all other privileges of being a Church Member were denied to them. I remember that it would be better for Blacks in the next life for them not to be members of the Church in this life. Baptism of Blacks was not encouraged.
The Curse of Cain was not an opinion, it was Church policy and it was Church Doctrine. Calling it a fallacious opinion is a PC way of saying the Church Leaders before 1978 were not correct in their teachings. Why not admidt they were Racist?
Of course admiting they were Racist would also open the door that perhaps they were not correct about many other items either.
Civil Rights was a big item in those days and the Church would have lost a lot if they had not changed the doctrine when they did.
Given enought time, and the LDS history books will say Civil Rights came about because the Curse of Cain was lifted.
The ban was not about skin color. There have been dark skin members from the S. Pacfic way before the ban was lifted. Light skin Blacks were denied.
The ban was directed at people of African descent. If a white person had one drop of African blood, then they were also excluded.
This was Racism using Religion to justify it. But then, the Bible and the BOM are full of Righteous Racism.
Have you ever consider that Racism might be the correct thing God wants? Have we become PC when we should follow the scriptures and be Racist?
“The Curse of Cain was not an opinion, it was Church policy and it was Church Doctrine.”
Just because many members believed it, did not make it a doctrine.
“Have you ever consider that Racism might be the correct thing God wants?”
Why would He want Racism? Let’s not turn human mistakes and human failings into Divine ones. Just because humans can be idiots doesn’t mean the Lord is.
Abraham (founder of the Jews) wrote the book of Abraham and Racism is found in his teachings.
Moses (restorer of the Jews) wrote Genesis and Racism (before Abraham) is found in his teachings.
Joesph Smith (founder of LDS) translated/wrote the Book Abraham and Racism is there.
Bringham Young (Major Developer of LDS Beliefs) taught Racism (Curse of Cain).
The major leaders of the LDS faith taught Racism thru Curse of Cain. Are you suggesting all these men from Abraham and Moses thru all the Prophets until 1978 made a mistake and were not following God’s will in this matter? Over 5,000 years of religion is wrong and 28 years of change is correct?
God is not racist. If the writings of men, even prophetic, appear racist, that does not make God racist. Are you saying that God, our Heavenly Father, the Father of all spirits, is racist against His own children?
I will never believe that my Heavenly Father does not love, to the extreme extent, each one of His children. Racism was and is a creation of man. In our limited and flawed minds, we are the ones who create divisions. Our Father in Heaven does not. He allows us to use our agency and unfortunately that agency allows much ignorance and stupidity. But don’t blame God for that.
By the way, Joseph Smith ordained blacks to the priesthood. The ban against blacks being able to participate in temple ordinances or receiving the priesthood didn’t come into effect until Brigham Young became the president of the Church.
You belong to a Judo Christian based Religion that for the past 5,000 years has taught the concept that God had placed a curse upon African blood.
You also belong to a religion that teaches those who are born into or join the religion are more righteous and special than those who are not members. Only worthy LDS members will reach the highest kingdom of God.
Are you saying that Bringham Young lead the Saints astray with the doctrine on Negroes?
What about Moses and Abraham? Abraham started the Judo Religion and he taught Negroes were cursed (read Abraham). Moses enhanced the religion and he taught Negroes were cursed (read Genesis). The Judo Christian religion has taught Negroes where cursed from the beginning. The LDS religion also taught Negroes were cursed and still do. The curse was lifted but it was still a curse. Maybe the next set of LDS scriptures will have the mention of the curse removed from them.
If God is not racist, then why are some of his children favored over others?
Is it possible that from the beginning the Judo Christian religion has preached false religion? Is it also possible that modern religion is teaching a false doctrine that Negeroes are not still cursed?
Is it possible the doctrines of the 2006 LDS Church is not the same doctrines/church the members 100 years belonged to?
Does a modern day Prophet change the truth to fit todays needs?
Does the truth change?
Are you saying it is not skin colour but blood lines that carry the curse of cain?
So a person could have black skin and not be cursed and a white person could be cursed if they are from Cain.
What if a person gets a P Blessing and the P Blessing says they are from Cain, would the still get the Priesthood?
Interesting.
“You belong to a Judo Christian based Religion that for the past 5,000 years has taught the concept that God had placed a curse upon African blood.”
Can you tell me where this doctrine is found? I admit many people believe this, but have yet to find official doctrine on this matter.
“You also belong to a religion that teaches those who are born into or join the religion are more righteous and special than those who are not members.”
Again, see the above response. Many believe this, but where is the official doctrine on this? The only thing our Church teaches, as doctrine, is that the keys of the priesthood, of the necessary saving ordinances are found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. If we were/are so much better wouldn’t we be exalted as Zion was?
“Are you saying that Bringham Young lead the Saints astray with the doctrine on Negroes?”
Brigham Young, like many people, had personal biases. Did some of these biases influence how he led the Church? I don’t know. Is it possible? Certainly. Anything is possible.
“The LDS religion also taught Negroes were cursed and still do. ”
Again, can you show me where this is taught as doctrine? I don’t deny that there are racist individuals in the Church. This doesn’t mean it is LDS doctrine.
Another thing, Negro is a dated term that comes from the ignorance white people have of African Peoples. Not all Africans are of Negro descent.
“What about Moses and Abraham?”
Again, see the above response.
“If God is not racist, then why are some of his children favored over others?”
This should be obvious. The Lord doesn’t favour individuals. He is very exact about how blessings work. Everyone can recieve all the blessings entitled as long as they live worthily. It is the human race which create the divisions and favouritism, coupled with misinterpretation of what they believe to be true.
“Is it possible that from the beginning the Judo Christian religion has preached false religion?”
Hmmm, let’s see. Is it possible people are fallible? Oh and it is “Judeo-Christian” not “Judo Christian”.
“Is it possible the doctrines of the 2006 LDS Church is not the same doctrines/church the members 100 years belonged to?”
Show me references for these “doctrines”. But make sure they ARE doctrine, not personal writings and opinions.
“Does the truth change?”
It certainly does not. However, many people can hold views that though not truth, they perceive to be truth for so long it’s hard to see where they went wrong. For example, as a child I was taught (erroneously) that cola drinks were against the Word of Wisdom. Yes, I thought this was truth until I was old enough to start realising for myself that just because something is taught as a tradition, this does not make it doctrine. Truth does not change, but human beings, being human, make mistakes. God does not. However, He, in His infinite wisdom allows us to learn for ourselves. In spite of the fact we often make fools of ourselves. It’s amazing how often we blunder through life, isn’t it?
“You belong to a Judo Christian based Religion”
Is that similar to a Karate Christian religion?
If spell checker was available, perhaps there would be less spelling mistakes like Judeo. I did not know Canadians spell realizing “realising” until tonight.
If the original 12 Apostles had gone East instead of West into Rome, it is very likely the Muslim World would have been Christian and the Western World would have been somehting else.
You know that it is very hard to prove something as Mormon Doctrine when you do not accept common teachings, personel writings and even the famous Mormon Doctrine Book. I am not aware of an official Mormon Doctrine manual one can look things up on.
Do you consider yourself to be a Liberal Mormon? A left winger?
What if a future Prophet says the Curse of Cain is true Doctrine. Would that change things?
In the test Wards where Blacks do not pay tithing as restitution, has this been successful? Is it too early to tell? I read an article where another religion was trying something similar.
Spell check is on your own computer,and perhaps on your own browser. It isn’t available through the website.
Yes, Canadian spellings often using “s” instead of “z”. However, “Judo” isn’t a spelling mistake as such, so spell checker would not pick it up. “Judo” is a word and “Judeo” is a word.
“You know that it is very hard to prove something as Mormon Doctrine when you do not accept common teachings, personel writings and even the famous Mormon Doctrine Book.”
Perhaps. However I do know that what you claim to be taught as doctrine, is not doctrine.
“Do you consider yourself to be a Liberal Mormon? A left winger?”
I consider myself to be a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. I have a testimony that the ordinances and the keys necessary for us to be exalted are found in this Church. The priesthood keys were restored through Joseph Smith and that the true doctrines of the Gospel, as far as we have them, are found here.
Liberal? Hmmm, well that all depends. Do I believe people should be treated with respect, acceptance, love, compassion? That the earth needs to be taken care of? That the environment is important, that all people are special and valuable to our Heavenly Father? Yes I do. Many of my ideas are considered left. Many are considered right. I am against abortion. I do not believe gay marriage is right (but let me clarify that I do believe homosexuals have a right to choose to be homosexual because we are all given agency). But I do believe people have the right to choose their lives. I believe in loving everyone (ok, I don’t always follow through with this, but I try). I have been a peace activist and an environmental activist. I do many “crunchy” things. Actually, if I was American, I would be a “crunchy conservative” (you can google that to find out the definition).
My God is a loving Father in Heaven who expects me to learn from, and follow His Son. To be as much like Jesus, to learn of Him and become like Him. Slowly, slowly I am on that path. At least I hope I am. That, is my ultimate goal.
“What if a future Prophet says the Curse of Cain is true Doctrine. Would that change things?”
Truth never changes. God loves His children. In spite of all the stupid, ignorant and arrogant things we do, He loves us. He loves us no matter what the colour of our skin, no matter how we love Him, no matter what we do, no matter what our culture is. He loves us so much, He wants us back with Him one day. All of us. He knows we all won’t make it, but He still wants it. My testimony of my Heavenly Father and my Saviour Jesus Christ are true and always have been. I have known from the moment I can remember my existence, that They exist. Knowing WHO They are, I also know that some things are impossible. It is impossible for them to hate anything except evil. It is impossible for Them to be racist. Racism is evil. They are not evil.
“Joesph Smith (founder of LDS) translated/wrote the Book Abraham and Racism is there.”
He also ordained Blacks, sent them on missions and supported abolition. It would be a big stretch to say that Joseph Smith was racist.
Would you agree that BY was a Racist? Are you saying that BY changed the scriptures to support his point of view?
When did the church become racist?
Yes Brigham Young was a racist. He was a great man in many other ways, and I agree with so much of what he said, but yes, he was a racist. This is commonly known.
This doesn’t change the fact he was a prophet of God.
If you say BY was a Racist and the curse of cain is false doctrine, then are you saying BY taught false doctrine and the prophets after BY taught false doctrine or at least supported false doctrine? At least until 1978?
If BY taught false doctrine, then would he be a false prophet since he taught false doctrine?
So everything before 1978 needs to be reconsidered since False Doctrine was taught? Is this what you are saying?
A Prophet of God would not teach false doctrine because to do so would be to lead us astray and God would not allow that unless that is also False Doctrine.
The other option is to pick and choose which items the Prophet tells the truth about. Seems like I heard something about that not being right also.
Do you have a list of the items BY and others taught false doctrine on? Is it final or still growing?
If BY taught false doctrine and it took unitl 1978 for another Prophet to counter this false doctrine, is false doctrine why the temple vows were changed along with the scriptures being changed because of false doctrine?
I’m asking questions and looking forward to liberal mormon answers.
Bill
I said Brigham Young was a Prophet, and that he was racist. There is ample evidence that he was racist and ample evidence that he was a prophet. I do not believe that he said anything in his capacity as the prophet, that was false doctrine. Don’t put words in my mouth. What you choose to believe is your decision. Although I abhor racism, I understand that there are many who are fallible (as we all are) in certain areas, and I believe Brigham Young was a product, in this aspect of his upbringing and time. I do not judge him by this time period, nor do I judge anyone by my time period or values, as it would be complete misunderstanding. This is the problem many members have, judging prophets in days gone by, by current standards and values.
For example, slavery is abhorrent and yet many ancient prophets had slaves. This doesn’t make them less prophets or false prophets. It makes them a product of their time.
Try not to speculate too much, you’ll get a headache.
Hum, so according to your words, we should believe the teachings of a Prophet if he has taught false doctrine and a newer prophet says his doctrine was not sound. Seems kinda of absurd.
I am not sure what false doctrine you are referring to. The “Curse of Cain” has not been taught as doctrine in the Church. As well, there is no doctrine that says men of African descent were to not recieve the Priesthood. The 1978 revelation was not overturning any previous doctrine. It was making a statement. Again, don’t put words in my mouth.
I respect and honour Brigham Young as a man of God and a prophet in this dispensation. He said many things that not many agreed with (read the Journal of Discourses) and many things people did agree with (read the Journal of Discourses). I like a lot of what he had to say, his racist comments I don’t agree with, but then as I said, he was a product of his upbringing and time.
So, Joseph Fielding Smith was a vegetarian, I like that idea (being veg myself) but does that mean all LDS should be vegetarian? No. It means he was a vegetarian.
Bruce R. McConkie taught, in an early edition of Mormon Doctrine that people of African Descent were less diligent in the pre-existence, which was why they were black. Was this doctrine? If so, why did the First Presidency ask him to remove it? Could it be because this was NOT doctrine (which of course it wasn’t since everyone who has come to earth kept their first estate, so of course they were diligent, as diligent as the next person) but because it was his own opinion? Wait! A prophet can have a personal opinion? Could this be true? Hmmmm….
I am not disagreeing with you, I am asking you to clarify what you mean.
The Curse of Cain was taught as doctrine for many years and it was practiced by the Church. Does that make it a correct doctrine? I wonder why it took so many years before it was changed? Could it have be a PR move at the time?
Bill
Can you show me where it was taught as doctrine by the Church? I can’t find anywhere that this was taught as doctrine, or that the Curse of Cain specifically denotes men of African descent being disallowed from recieving the priesthood. And I am asking, where was it taught as DOCTRINE, not tradition.
Interesting choice of words. You would be hard pressed to find doctrine as you call it for many of the unique things about the LDS religion.
I am assuming you are old enough to remember when the Church changed verses/words in the scriptures, changed the words you say at the temple and changed many of the doctrines that had been taught has doctrine for many years. Old doctrines were replaced with new and old became traditions.
The LDS church of 2006 is not the same church of say 1966 or 1976.
Traditions or Doctrines it is was the same thing.
Bill
Actually I don’t think so. I was born in 1971. But what do you mean by changing verses and words? Every time a new edition comes out they adjust something. However, they don’t adjust doctrine.
No, traditions and doctrines are not the same thing. Families being eternal is doctrine.The belief that all people indigenous to the Americas being descended from Lehi is tradition.
Make me feel old. 1971.
Adjustments for the most correct book is an interesting concept.
Temple Vows were changed because of the concern that members in other parts of the world would take the vows seriously and die for them. The previous vows made you promise to kill yourself and taught you how to do it. I suppose a partial is better than none.
I find it interesting that it is ok to changed scriptures, change temple vows, change the curse of cain and the people who started the church were wrong or racist or whatever and the leaders of today know a better way. hum?
American Indians came from Lehi topic – I guess that would depend on how much you believe Joesph Smith was a prophet and what he said was from God or he was making it up as he went.
It is interesting that the towns around NY have BofM names.
Bill,
I’ve lived through all those changes, and for me the pace is way too slow. The curse of Cain was hooey used to justify a lot of crap that abolitionist JS would have never permitted. So for me that was a reform of a past mistake. Temple instruction should be continually updated to convey the information in a way each generation can grasp it. So much of the stuff borrowed from Free Masons had lost any meaning to us. It should have been dumped long before.
All the scriptures are long overdue for us to move to modern English versions which would involve a lot more word changes than you’re complaining about. The move at some point to some generation’s modern English is inevitable, why delay? Then there’s are sad hymn book. One could go on and on. It’s all continuous improvement.
‘m not for things staying the same forever. I asked questions.
I personally would prefer the church to stay BY was wrong and we are changing it to the way it should have been.
You are correct about the scriptures needing to be updated. The stories about farming are so out of touch. They need to be changed to more modern city type themes that people will understand.
Modern songs would be great. How about the song “I have a friend name Jesus for example”?
“American Indians came from Lehi topic – I guess that would depend on how much you believe Joesph Smith was a prophet and what he said was from God or he was making it up as he went.”
I know Joseph Smith was a prophet. I am not saying that he wasn’t. However, there is not evidence that ALL indigenous peoples were descended from Lehi. There is a lot of evidence that some (I am referring to all the Americas, not just the US)came from other areas. It stands to reason.
So, Joseph Smith ordained blacks to the priesthood, Brigham Young would not. Who was wrong? I accept both as prophets, know they were. This does not mean they were perfect.