I came across this tonight while having scripture study:
Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. (1 Sam. 15:1?¢‚Ǩ‚Äú3)
What an odd commandment.
If the Lord wanted Amalek to be killed, why didn’t the Lord do it himself? A simple illness or plague would take care of the problem.
Killing in the name of God has been going on for a long time.
If the Lord wanted Nephi to make a ship, why didn’t he do it himself? If the Lord wanted to tell Pharaoh something, why didn’t he tell him himself? If the Lord wanted to translate the Book of Mormon plates, why didn’t he do it himself?
I think it’s pretty obvious that the answer to all of these questions is the Lord didn’t do all these things because He can’t.
Rick
No, that answer isn’t obvious. He can. He is omnipotent. But He requires obedience and sacrifice of us. He wants us to become like Him.
He wants us to become arbitrarily incapable of exerting our omnipotence?
I would have thought that He wanted more for his children…
Rick, as distasteful as it is to discuss such ideas with someone who seeks only to mock beliefs he already rejects, let me have a go:
We don’t possess omnipotence. However, our Father in Heaven wants us to grow up to be like him, and exercise the same powers he has. There’s nothing arbitrary about our lack of omnipotence; it’s just a fact. God gives us opportunities to become better—to become more like him. He can’t just arbitrarily confer ominipotence on us; we have to obtain it by obedience to divine laws—the same laws he follows.
ltubugaf, as distasteful as it is to discuss such ideas with someone who seeks only to discuss faith with the faithful, let me have a go: :P
I guess I was unclear. The arbitrary omnipotence I was referring to was the Lord’s.
It seems sometimes He is more than capable of various and sundry uses of His divine powers, and at other times does not choose to intervene – seemingly arbitrarily.
Ostensibly, He could have chosen to do all of the things listed above, but he did not, or could not.
He chooses not to do these things because we are the ones who are here to learn, not Him.
Learning occurs regardless of the presence of a Maker.
The question really should be, why have the overt uses of His power diminished in these latter days?
Who says they have? Just because people don’t recognise them, doesn’t mean His works aren’t here.
True, learning does happen regardless of a Maker, but He made this world for us, He created this plan for us, and the TYPE of learning we do is important to what happens in the eternities. And our purpose here is to learn to become like Him and to be happy.
“…Just because people don’t recognise them, doesn’t mean His works aren’t here…”
Have any burning bushes talked to YOU recently?
Heard any reports about seas being parted?
Have any of your neighbours been turned to a pillar of salt lately?
Of course I’m exaggerating, but the preponderance of miracles in the Bible (and BoM) somehow leave the miraculous events of the present in their dust.
“…our purpose here is to learn to become like Him and to be happy…”
So which is it? Do we get to be like Him or do we get to be happy?
I would have a hard time being happy when I knew that the overwhelming majority of my children were not following their Heavenly Father’s Plan.
I know the conversation has kind of strayed from the original topic, but has anyone considered that perhaps the Lord did not actually command Israel to destroy Amalek. Claiming that the Lord commanded it provides a good excuse to exact revenge on an enemy.
There are miracles. But why need the “big” ones? Ok, I can tell you of a miracle. Doesn’t seem so huge, but it is. A couple trying for a baby for 15 years and are told there is no way they can get pregnant. Then a baby boy is born to them. Small maybe, but not really. I have experienced many miracles. One, when I was 13 years old on the verge of a literal breakdown and after a short, desperate prayer, literally my burden was lifted. You might wonder what that burden was for a 13 year old, but it was pretty darn big and something I couldn’t handle alone. My prayer was seriously, immediately answered.
I have seen other miracles happen too, changes of heart when it seemed impossible. Lives being saved when they should not have been.
“So which is it? Do we get to be like Him or do we get to be happy?”
Both.
“I would have a hard time being happy when I knew that the overwhelming majority of my children were not following their Heavenly Father’s Plan.”
Yes, but then you are only mortal and your view is limited. He is immortal and His view is not limited.
Rick: “I guess I was unclear. The arbitrary omnipotence I was referring to was the Lord’s.”
Yes, I’d say you were more than unclear when you said God “wants US to become arbitrarily incapable of exerting OUR omnipotence.” Do you usually refer to God as “we”?
I don’t do my children’s homework for them. I guess that means they’re arbitrarily incapable of exerting my knowledge?
Mary Said:
Rick
No, that answer isn’t obvious. He can. He is omnipotent. But He requires obedience and sacrifice of us. He wants us to become like Him.
Mary, are you saying that to become like the Lord, I should teach my children to kill people that get in the way of my master plan? How on earth did your condescending response answer the question?
Itbugaf Said:
God gives us opportunities to become better—to become more like him.
Bug, how on earth is the commandment to kill another, probably in cold blood, designed to make us better? Does becomming more like the Lord mean turning oneself into a selective killer? Yours is a poor response from someone who probably knows better.
I think we all need a nice big talk on EMPATHY in the next general conference. For the life of me, I can’t understand why most of you are unable to empathize with Rick or anybody else that doesn’t share your point of view! Rick has valid questions and valid beliefs. When he posts (regardless if he’s being a smart ass or not) he usually understands both sides of the issue better than anyone else posting here (including me).
If you really want to be more “Christlike” perhaps a teaspoon of love and empathy is in order? Man, are we LDS so narrow minded that we cannot or will not see from another’s perspective?
/step off soapbox
Rick, to reply to your comment, I personally don’t think it’s because he can’t, but rather that he won’t.
When I think of divine intervention, I suppose that God want’s to make as few ripples in the lake as possible. The less direct influence he has, the more pure this lab experiment, we call life, will be.
I think that if there is an opportuinity for one of us to do his bidding, he won’t interfear. Only when there is no other option.
For instance, here is an example that illustrates this. In the summer of 2005 I received a phone call from the Canada Revenue Agency. I made some errors in filling out my GST Return for 2004. As a result they began an audit of my personal and business taxes.
Up to this point, I had tried to do all of my accounting by myself. I guess I didn’t do that good of a job. The next 9 months were utter hell. Saying that the CRA is relentless is an understatement.
Anyway, as I was going through this, I was deeply embarressed. The only people that I let know were my wife and the CRA.
During this very difficult time in my life, I would fast and pray for countless hours to be ‘relieved’ of the burden place upon me. I pleaded with God to show me the way out of this mess that I thought would never end. It never came. Not even the slightest flicker of spiritual comfort. I truly felt forsaken.
Finally, this last spring, I was talking to my Mom and I let her in on my little secret. Although she felt bad for me, she thought I was pretty foolish. She said:
“Why didn’t you tell me about this sooner? Don’t you remember that my brother is an accountant? He deals with the CRA all the time. Let me talk to him about this. He’ll clear it all up”
I felt like the biggest heal. My uncle lives in Ontario and I havent seen him in over 15 years, so it completely left my mind.
Anyway, my uncle got involved and in the better part of a week, it was all cleared up.
What’s the point? Well I learned the following:
First, ‘this burden’ wasn’t placed upon me. I placed it upon myself.
Second, my pride kept me from talking to my Mom who would have reminded me about my uncle much earlier.
Third, why didn’t God ‘prompt’ me to talk to my mom? I believe He didn’t because that would have caused an unnecessary ripple in the lake. There was a way out of the situation and if I would have not let my pride get in the way, I would have had the help I needed much sooner. Regardless, I got the help I needed, and a lesson in how pride can hurt.
Now, did the Lord really want Amalek dead? I don’t know. I like to think the scriptures aren’t entirely false, er, translated incorrectly… Was there some other lesson that Saul needed to learn? Maybe. I believe the Lord could have taken Amalek at any time, but if he needed to have Saul kill him, there was something more going on. If the scriptural account is true, then the Lord needed to teach Saul a lesson more than he needed Amalek dead.
JM, you called my remarks a “poor response from someone who probably knows better.”
I was responding to the question by “George” about why God doesn’t just do things for us rather than having us do them. He gives us commandments to help us become more like him. If you don’t agree, then please explain why God does give us commandments? Just for his own capricious amusement?
Now, you point out that in applying this principle to the specific command he gave to the Israelites—applying, of course, only to that occasiono—to destroy every trace of another nation, it’s hard for us to see how obedience to such a commandment helps one become Godlike. I agree that it’s difficult to see that. The only thing I can grasp is that when God gives a particularly difficult commandment, it helps us to become more obedient—more willing to subsume our own will and follow his will, just as Jesus was. God had purposes in destroying those nations, just as he had in destroying Sodom and Gomorrah—which also contained children and animals.
For an explanation of why God would choose to destroy the innocent from time to time, I think there is one idea to consider, which may or may not apply to this situation: There are environments so horrible for children that they are better off not living.
“Mary, are you saying that to become like the Lord, I should teach my children to kill people that get in the way of my master plan? How on earth did your condescending response answer the question?”
Condescending? Hmm, interesting. I didn’t realise trusting the Lord was condescension. Remember this too, we believe the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. Let’s leave room for the possibility that THAT commandment was not exactly as it was recorded in that passage of scripture. I believe in a loving God who allows people to choose their own lives no matter how much they mess them up.
I don’t claim to have prophetic knowledge about every tiny thing my Heavenly Father does, but I do know enough about Him to trust He will lead me right.
ltbugaf,
Um, no it wasn’t. It was in response to Rick. At least the name Rick was the first word in your post in #6. Perhaps you mis-typed?
Mary,
Yes, Condescending describes your reply to anyone with a different point of view than your own.
Do you just not get the whole concept of empathy?
Rather than fly off into a tirade about the Lord and blind faith and all of those wonderfully simplistic answers you leaned in primary, how about trying to understand a different perspective than your own?
If you are really so concerned about the welfare of Rick’s soul, then step off your pedistal and walk beside him, seeing the world as he does. It may help you to understand why those pebbles you see in front of him really look like mountains from where he is standing.
“How on earth did your condescending response answer the question?”
Woah, JM. Did you get off the wrong side of the bed this morning? Where the heck did that come from? I don’t see anywhere in anything Mary said that suggested we should teach our children it’s alright to kill, let alone that anything she said is condescending or a tirade . You may want to reread what she wrote.
JM
“Yes, Condescending describes your reply to anyone with a different point of view than your own.
Do you just not get the whole concept of empathy?”
Ok, I am truly bewildered here. I am just giving my reply to what Rick asked. It truly does not matter to me if he believes it or not. You don’t even KNOW me or know who I am or what I believe or how much I care about other people. I believe in offering people the right to have their own opinion, but I am certainly entitled to mine. They don’t have to agree with me. I am actually not on a pedestal. Right now I am smack dab in the middle of educating my children, while my kindergartner colours his dinosaur model, my grade three daughter finishes up her phonics, my baby nurses and my laundry needs changing.
I have 6 brothers and sisters. Only one of whom goes to church (a sister), and believe it or not she is the one I have the LEAST cordial relationship (this has nothing to do with her activity in church or her beliefs). I have other siblings who have no time or desire for the church or Gospel teachings and believe it or not, I completely respect that and after many years, don’t even experience heartbreak over it because I give them, fully, their right to believe and live how they want to live. My other sister, who doesn’t have time for the church is the one I am closest to. This does not cause friction between us (anymore, as a matter of fact, for years). I don’t have to agree with someone to let them think what they will, but I still don’t have to agree with that point of view. I can make a comment and disagree. This blog is a LDS blog and I have a right to state my opinion on a matter relating to God the Father and His Son and the church. I have not once told Rick he is going to hell in a handbasket or he is evil or what have you. Why? Because I don’t think so or even give it much thought.
Where was my tirade? There was no tirade here. You seem to be reading more than what is said. I also don’t believe in blind faith, but yes, I trust my Father in Heaven. Is something wrong with that? What is your problem with me? Again, you don’t even know me, my life or my experiences. I am not sure what I said to elicit such animosity from you. I actually have great respect for Rick, but what’s wrong with a healthy debate? I certainly wasn’t feeling self righteous or condescending towards him. I thought we were having a discussion. Certainly Rick, if you felt I was attacking you, I apologise, it was totally unintentional. I thought we were trading points of view.
JM, you, on the other hand, I have a problem with understanding why you feel it necessary to attack in such a personal way.
ltbugaf, to be clear when I spoke of the Lord’s arbitrary use of His omnipotence, it was because Mary said we would become omnipotent gods.
If we were then going to also be like Him in our abilities (and choice of when to use them) we would act in a a similairly arbitrary way.
My point was that I would hope that given the choice, I would act in a more reasonable and predictible way toward my multitudes of children, rather than in the un-intuitive and seemingly arbitrary way the Lord presides over us.
JM and Mary, I’m fine with the discussion we were having.
Look, I see this whole philosophy discussion thing in much the same light as I see arguing about which team is going to win the Stanley Cup next year.
For me, it’s mostly a stimulating mental exercise. I don’t *try* to get anyone really wound up over the whole thing. Am I crass at times? Sure. But it’s all in the spirit of friendly discussion and debate.
Rick
That’s what I thought. That was my take on it as well.
Well,
I’ve typed this response about 10 times… not satisfied with any.
Maybe a question is in order.
When someone who is non LDS or perhaps LDS but doubting posts a point of view different from your own, what do you hope to accomplish by responding?
Rick,
That would be the Calgary Flames
JM, I guess it depends on if the start-of-the-season flames show up for the finals or the team that’s been playing lately…
It’s too soon to tell for me, so I’m a hockey agnostic for now.
JM
After your nasty comments to me, I have nothing to say to you in answer. My discussion was with Rick, he didn’t see anything attacking in it and for some strange reason, you did. Posts in Our Thoughts invite comments of differing views, respectful, which mine were, as were Rick’s. Yours on the other hand, were not. If you don’t like that maybe you shouldn’t be here. By attacking me and accusing me of all sorts of outlandish things as well as not even having the consideration to admit you blew things out of proportion, I don’t see any need to respond to you at all. And will not. I don’t need this from you or anyone. Again, I am not sure why you dislike me, but it is quite apparent you have a serious problem with me. Again, I don’t know why as I cannot recall having done anything to incur your wrath. But your animosity is certainly not needed in my life.
JM: Um…yes I was. The comment from “George” and the first response I gave is how the whole issue came up, even before I addressed Rick.
If you’re not going to engage any of the rest of what I’ve said (too busy insulting Mary, I guess), I suppose we’re done.
Capt. Obsidian said: “I know the conversation has kind of strayed from the original topic, but has anyone considered that perhaps the Lord did not actually command Israel to destroy Amalek. Claiming that the Lord commanded it provides a good excuse to exact revenge on an enemy.”
If you are correct, then Sammel was not acting as the prophet but as a man and therefor the cause of much murder in the name of God.
How does one know when a prophet is being a prophet or a man?
Rick, I understand your position. The problem is that you’re assuming your viewpoint is equal or superior to that of God: If it looks arbitrary to you, then it’s arbitrary. That overlooks the important truth that God sees and knows what we do not see and know. If it doesn’t look right to me, that may be only because I lack God’s superior understanding. He knows better than I do—hence the exhortation to subordinate my will to his.
…Just like I don’t always give my children what they want, or what they think is fair. I know what is good for them better than they do, and I try always to act for their benefit. Sometimes that makes them think I’m being arbitrary or capricious; that’s because their understanding is inferior to mine.
ltbugaf, would you hide your actions from one of your children, all the while explaining and demonstrating why your actions had merit to another of your children?
I refuse to accept the viewpoint that God could not, if He so chose to, put his motivations in a manner which I could understand.
If it looks arbitrary to me, then from my viewpoint it IS arbitrary until I have been shown the rhyme or reason behind it.
If He refuses to explain it to me then He is letting my flap in the wind … which to my limited understanding of the Universe seems a bit cold-hearted.
Of course I do. My teenager can understand much more than my toddler, so I explain a lot more to the teenager than to the toddler. We have different capacities for understanding.
God is sending his messengers to explain as much as we are ready to receive. Some of us are more ready to hear than others, and some of us are more willing to listen than others. But there’s a very great deal that none of us is yet ready to understand. That’s why we need faith.
Does your toddler know he/she has a father?
I’m going to assume you just said yes.
Does your average Hindu know that he has a Heavenly Father?
No.
…and therein lies the difference.
This is why we have a current living prophet so that Heavenly Father can give us clearer consise directions OTHER then what is in the scriptures. You have to realize that the world is different now then it was in the days of the Bible. If you stoned a woman for commiting adultery right now you would have a lot of women walking around with black and blue bodies. If you chopped off the hands of those who robbed we would have a lot of handless people out there.
Life changes. Just because something is black and white in the scriptures does not mean it is correct or we have to follow exactly the way it is stated. That is why we listen to our Prophet’s counsel and why we pray about the things we are told so we can have a direct testimony of what we are learning.
We also have to remember that words in the scriptures were written by man and only man. Christ never wrote them. Man wrote them the way they understood it. Who is to know that Christ really meant go kill all children not just the men. That could have been the interpretation of the writer.
As for you Rick and Mary, there is no way the Flames can win… its the Canucks all the way!!
Does my toddler know he has a father? Yes.
Will the average Hindu who doesn’t yet know he has a Heavenly Father acquire that knowledge eventually? Yes. Everyone else will, too, including all who have died without ever finding out. That’s one of the many reasons that the ordinances of the temple are absolutely indispensable.
D&C 1:2
ltbugaf, I asked ‘does’ not ‘will’ and that’s a huge difference.
Sally, precisely how is anything coming from President Hinckley “clearer” or more “consise” when he uses phrases like “I’m not sure we teach that” and “I don’t know” in interviews?
… and to make myself perfectly clear, I have NO position on who will with the Stanley Cup, yet.
“When someone who is non LDS or perhaps LDS but doubting posts a point of view different from your own, what do you hope to accomplish by responding?”
An intelligent debate. Or at the very least an open, free exchange of ideas.
It is very tought to have an intelligent debate or even a free exchange of ideas when there is only one approved thought (right or wrong) and anyone with a different thought is labeled as unrighteous by the others in the group.
Don’t I know it.
George, everyone who expresses a view of any kind risks being labeled something by someone. Rick, for example, labels me as irrational and xenophobic. That doesn’t make it any more difficult for me to express my views, or make it any less easy to have a free exchange or intelligent debate.
Rick said: “I asked ‘does’ not ‘will’ and that’s a huge difference.”
Not really. It’s just a matter of where people are in line. Some come before others. They all get the same thing in the end. If that seems arbitrary to you, then there’s no point in trying to persuade you otherwise because you refuse to consider that your own perspective is less perfect than God’s.
“…you refuse to consider that your own perspective is less perfect than God’s.”
You mean in that mine exists and His does not? :P
If people are currently unaware of their Heavenly Father, and will not learn of his existence until they die, then He is explaining the world to some of his children while allowing the other to be raised Fatherless.
Does this have everlasting consequences? I believe that according to the LDS doctrine, it does.
Seems a bit odd that a caring, just Creator would put such a large number of His children at a disadvantage due to something as arbitrary as geography.
Then again, if you believe that the white and delightsome peoples of the world were destined to reign in the highest degrees of glory, then it all just makes sense.
Rick – Are you referring to the Curse of Cain which is tradition and not doctrine?
I read in a liberal magazine (Nation) about the Curse of Cain just this week. It surprised me that non-mormons also believe in Noah’s curse on Ham’s son.
Where did you think the early leaders got the idea, George?
Rick, I see that you’re still trying to have it both ways: Denying that there is a God while arguing about his attributes. I’m afraid that position is just too devoid of integrity for me to continue the discussion.
Kim Siever said: “Where did you think the early leaders got the idea, George?”
I was taught they they were inspired of God. If they were uninspired then what were they?
Just because they taught something that everyone else around them believed does not make them absolutely uninspired. Believing that blacks were descended from and cursed because of Ham’s son because that was popular belief in society of the day does not mean other, unrelated teachings were not from God.