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Queer Mormon poet with radical political views. I have been married 27 years, and we have 6 children. Sunday school president. Served in the Utah Provo Mission.
View all posts by Kim Siever
104 thoughts on “What happens when atheists knock on Mormons’ doors”
That was awsome!
That was vile!
I agree,
Awsome / vile in that it showed the rampant hypocrisy in our (LDS) attitude towards proselytizing.
JM, your last comment reminded me of an experience I had on my mission. Some investigators of ours had been invited to church by some Mormons, yet when they invited the Mormons to attend their Catholic church, the Mormons declined.
I thought the piece did a good job of displaying how social boundaries exist for a reason and it is, in general, bad form to intrude upon them.
I didn’t find it as entertaining as I did demonstrative.
When I knocked on someone’s door as a missionary, I was never doing it for the purpose of insulting them or goading them into a reaction. We treated everyone who said no with perfect respect. The smarmy fellow who introduces this footage starts out with a transparently hypocritical episode of protest-too-muchism (“Some people would say deliberate distortion and attacks X, Y and Z about you…but not me!). After that, he asks us to believe that knocking on a door is the rudest act one can perform in society. When someone knocks on my door and I’m not interested in what they offer, I can politely decline. So can he.
“he asks us to believe that knocking on a door is the rudest act one can perform in society.”
Or more specifically knocking on a door on a Saturday morning.
The assertion is just as ridiculous with “Saturday morning” thrown in.
“We treated everyone who said no with perfect respect.”
So I take it that you did NOT try and convert these people?
In some segments of society it’s considered rude to come to another’s door unannounced. Let alone, trying to tell someone that their current faith is incorrect and they should change or risk eternal consequences…
For a large contingent of people in the world, sleeping in on a Saturday is commonplace.
I know for a fact that missionaries do not ring once then walk away. They will often ring the bell several times. This is both annoying and rude.
No, rick, I didn’t try to convert people who turned me away. The point of knocking on doors is to find the ones who are interested, not to pester those who aren’t.
Thank you for sharing your extensive knowledge of universal truths about all missionaries.
The JW’s came to my door and I was polite to them. A counselor from YM’s knocked on my door and said he was assigned to be my HT’er and I was polite to him while I told him I had no interest in being HT by him or anyone else.
The Bishop called last Sunday (on the phone during Sunday School time) and wanted to come see our family and I was polite to him and said no. 2nd time in 50 years a Bishop wanted to come to my home for a visit. He was too busy to say welcome to the ward 4 months ago but he can make time for me when tithing settlement arrives. Too bad I decided to not attend the LDS Church any longer.
Why do you need to be rude to someone is beyond me. If you want to follow Christ, then be nice. You do not have to be rude just because they have a different view than you do. Are you rude at work? If not then be nice to JW’s or mormons who no longer attend or anyone.
My 2 cents
“No, rick, I didn’t try to convert people who turned me away.”
By the time you got to the ‘who turned me away’ part, you had already been annoying. Do you understand the distinction?
These people had to stop whatever they were doing (let’s hope it wasn’t sleeping), go to the door, hear your sales pitch and then find some way to disengage from the encounter.
If people want to know about the church, there are plenty of ways to do so. The point was that going to someone’s door to convert them is annoying to the occupants of the dwelling; especially on a Saturday before noon.
If you think that having a person knock on your door to make an offer is annoying, then you just aren’t being reasonable. And it’s certainly not as annoyiong as the intentional provocation that this man was engaged in.
I didn’t make a “sales pitch.” I told them who I was and that we would like to share a message. They could—and nearly always did—say no without difficulty. If we adopt the position that no one should ever be able to approach or speak to another person without prior approval, then what will we do to our society? People can talk. People can offer to present ideas. Others can accept or refuse. No one’s hurt, and no one really has a right to be annoyed about it, unless they’re being beliegerently hectored.
(In my first paragraph above, I meant to say “rude” rather than “annoying”—both times.)
Kim, I’ve been thinking through what you said in #4, and I really can’t see what was so bad. The Catholics were invited; that means they were free to accept or decline. The LDS family that invited them had no business being offended if they did decline. There would have been nothing impolite about declining. The same was true when the Catholic family invited the LDS family. They had a perfect right to decline, and doing so isn’t impolite.
Because they had no reason to decline. It’s not like they had something else to do. This was a popular scenario in Utah (or at least in the areas where I served). They were being hypocrites and were only interested in baptising someone. In these instances, there was never a desire to build a lasting relationship.
I will only be your friend if you join my church type of thing?
Seems kinda shallow and phoney.
“…then you just aren’t being reasonable”
Which is my right in both your country and mine.
Regardless of whether or not YOU believe it’s unreasonable to have to be bothered by people ringing your buzzer, there are hundreds of thousands of people who would disagree. This fellow with the video is just one of them.
It’s about boundaries, and I think the mishies often over-step them.
Sales people have to be a little pushy if they are going to get anyone to listen to their story.
With that said, it is unnecessary to rude. What I find interesting however, is when LDS are rude to those of other faiths.
I was talking with a neighbor and he was talking about how he would not vote for Mit Romney because he was LDS. I wondered if he had insulted me at the same time since he knew I used to attend.
He caught he mistake but the harm was already done. Should I have insulted him back?
I know for a fact that this religion is based on lies. After I married a Mormon, I studied the church doctorine and theology after expressing a desire to convert. It horrified me. My husband left not long after doing the research himself, especially after learning the church never condemned polygamy. They just stopped practicing it after 1890 when Utah became a state. (I have more respect for the fundamentalist Mormons, because they follow the original teachings of Jeseph Smith.)
Oh, and my favorite, the curse of the Indians, whose skin were turned red as eternal punishment. The book of Mormon itself says the religion is bogus.
While people who convert to this “religion” based on testimony. I base mine on fact. That is why I am not Mormon
This last comment is not Sally, my mother in law. This is another Sally. My mother in law has a strong, dedicated testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
Sally said: “I know for a fact that this religion is based on lies.”
Do you know of a religion that is not based on lies? Perhaps a better word would be mistruths.
It is interesting that when a person attacks a religion like LDS, they often do not have anything more than some vague response as an alternative option to the religion they just attacked.
“It is interesting that when a person attacks a religion…”
This is the blind spot of the believer.
Very few are those whose scrutiny is as intense when observing their own faith as other beliefs.
To the Sally who made the post about not being Mormon. The reason you have not continued in this religion is simply, no testimony can be gained by pure fact alone. It is through, and only by, the Holy Spirit confirming a witness to us that we can know the truth of this Gospel – no amount of fact will ever prove it’s truth – because fact is not perfect, anti-mormons can twist things and change things and make it sound bad. Check Moroni 10:3-5, it’s a famous scripture, I’m sure you know it.
I’m just about to head on my mission, and I’m sure I’ll have plenty of people be rude and nasty to me – that’s life. And I’d agree with it’s a I-can’t-be-bothered thing – who of us are really polite and have great conversations with telemarketers? Not me.
Unfortunatley for them, they’re the ones rejecting this sacred and important message that brings so much happiness into people’s lives. I was lucky to find it at age 16.
Ref comment 4 by Kim.
I think this is purely down to the individuals. I was once tracting with missionaries, on a street, which was also being tracted by JWs. They handed us a leaflet and we gladly took it – purely so as not to offend them. But when offered an LDS pass along card they simply replied, “don’t think so, we already have the truth”.
This is their belief, so fair enough. But they weren’t rude about it – and neither should we be if we turn down the chance to attend a Catholic sermon – but we shouldn’t get upset if they then don’t come to our Sacrament Meetings.
ldsuk87 said: “I was lucky to find it at age 16.”
I’m glad you found something that solves your needs at such an early age.
You wrote “It is through, and only by, the Holy Spirit confirming a witness to us that we can know the truth of this Gospel – no amount of fact will ever prove it’s truth – because fact is not perfect”
Is it possible to believe that the Holy Spirit did testify of something if it is not true? Would believing in something that is not true make it true or would your feelings have been wrong? If so, does it make the truth not the truth?
“I’m sure I’ll have plenty of people be rude and nasty to me”
You’ll also find plenty of people who think it’s rude and nasty to be bothered by people coming to their door and telling them what they believe is wrong.
Try and use some empathy on your mission…it’ll go a long way.
Who said I’ll be telling them it’s wrong. The first thing we’re told is never to degrade or put down anybody elses beliefs, if they choose to believe what they do, then that is their right to do so – I can only try and pursuade them otherwise – I would never outrightly say theyre wrong – I’d never get anywhere!
When you say ‘stop going to your church and start coming to ours’ you are implying that they are wrong.
No matter how you frame it, a missionaries job is to convice people that the way they are living is wrong and that the LDS way is right.
No, the LDS way is simply a better way. Many other lifestyles have many similarities to that of the LDS way. Many churches have many of the same beliefs. A missionary’s job is to offer a better alternative, the way in which, we can receive eternal life, not to put someone down because they’re wrong.
“the LDS way is simply a better way”
…and when you say things like this, prepare to have many, many doors closed in your face.
You may not be aware of it, but there is a belief, outside the church, that the LDS are an arrogant lot. Statements like yours don’t go a long way from removing that view.
Who said I’d come out and say that in a doorway.
For your own information, the average life expectancy of an LDS who lives the word of wisdom is approximately 11 years longer than that of somebody who smokes/drinks and various other stuff. Naturalyl there are exceptions, but as a general rule this is the case.
“Who said I’d come out and say that in a doorway”
So you’re planning on misleading potential converts. Are half-truths really the way you want to go when representing the Lord’s true church?
How much longer does the average LDS member live than a HEALTHY person who does not follow any other aspect of the LDS faith?
Studies have shown benefits to consuming alcohol in moderation. FYI
Most people agree that smoking is bad for you. This does not require a commandment from the Almighty to be apparent.
Comparing the worst case scenario to the LDS isn’t really bolstering your position much.
Oh I hate this alcohol scenario. Yes it is correct drinking red wine can provide you with less heart problems. Why!?! Is what you should ask yourself. It is the flavanoids in the grape juice and skin which is in the wine. Thus showing, those who drink pure dark (red grapes) grape juice obtain the health benefits without the disadvantages of the alcohol killing your brain cells! Hey! Good stuff that!
Who mentioned half truths anywhere? Not me that’s for one. I purely stated that there’s no point being RUDE at the door, as is the whole point of this thread … eventual explanation in further discussions, once the investigator understands a bit more would be perfectly acceptable.
How much longer does a HEALTHY person live than an LDS? Probably the same. How many non-LDS do you know who never: smoke, drink, live onlittle sleep, drink tea and coffee and the rest of the WoW.
How many LDS do you know who limit intake of meat? Not many.
The milk before meat scenario you describe is, at its’ heart, a sales method which systematically uses half-truths to get the target tom commit before knowing all of the facts.
The very fact that you show up at people’s doors, uninvited, will be considered rude by many. You should be prepared for that.
I don’t doubt that people will consider it rude. You’re definitely correct there, to be quite honest, I don’t particularly enjoy salesmen knocking my door.
I am there to find those few who are ready and prepared to accept the Gospel message. There are plenty of people out there waiting to be fuond.
Again you are correct, not many LDS people limit their intake of meat. 1) I don’t live in America or Canada where meat consumption is ridiculous anyway. and 2) Who says LDS people are perfect? We’re not. And food intake is a weakness of many
“Who says LDS people are perfect?”
This relates directly to your argument that strict observance of the WoW results in longer lives. Most LDS do not live the WoW and therefore statistics quoting longer life of the LDS are not really on point, that’s all.
“I am there to find those few who are ready and prepared to accept the Gospel message. There are plenty of people out there waiting to be found.”
I hope you’re going to South America, because that’s the only current mission field that matches your description.
“How many LDS do you know who limit intake of meat?”
Me. But ok, I am not many :) Go to Mormon Veg though and you will hear many who think everyone should be vegetarian.
I don’t only limit it, I don’t eat it because meat is gross.
ldsuk87, you would be surpirsed, not all Canadians and Americans eat hordes of meat. I lived in Ireland for a year many years ago and I was the only LDS vegetarian I knew.
Yes well it is a general rule. No statistic is 100% correct and full proof. You should realise this. You should also realise that this is merely a point to show that IF you live it then you can obtain this benefit. Nothing is guaranteed, you have to work at it to obtain it.
Actually I’m going to Germany … who in the last year have shown quite a statistical increase in members.
ldsuk87, I’d like a citation for that statistical increase, if you have it.
Most of the reading I’ve done recently has shown a decrease in religiousity in Western European countries over the last several years.
We are beginning to agree on several fronts. I am not saying the WoW is BAD, I’m just saying that the LDS do not have the market cornered on healthy practises.
I find plenty of good in religion in general, but not exclusively in religion. There are many ways of living a good life and not all of them involve religion.
I’m not saying all Canadians and Americans eat hordes — I simply am stating the statistics that Americans do eat a lot more than the rest of the world… its undenyable?
And yes, you’re quite right, there are actually a lot of Mormon vegetarians , which actually surprised me when I found out.
I do not have it to hand… but will more than gladly hunt it out for you, just not right now, it’s getting late here.
I’m glad we are finally agreeing. I’m saying LDS have cornered it, I’m saying what the LDS religion has layed out in the WoW does provide a healthier lifestyle – and if you follow this, whether you are religiou or not, you will be a healthier person. It’s just a shame we can’t just blindly follow it, it’s not that easy.
“It’s just a shame we can’t just blindly follow it”
You don’t mean to say that people SHOULD be blindly following it, do you?
It is a shame we can’t, can’t being another word for “unable to”. We are unable to follow it blindly because we are imperfect.
I don’t mean to say we SHOULDbe blindly following it. What I mean is, we should be striving to live it as best as we can.
You shouldn’t change my words, I’m a linguist, and I choose my words because I mean them.
So in a perfect world, with perfect people we should be blindly following the words in a book?
That doesn’t make any sense. If we were meant to follow blindly, God would not have given us minds with the capacity to reason or hearts with the capacity to feel.
ldsuk87
Remember this, the reason Satan’s plan was rejected was because he wanted exactly that, for us to follow blindly, to have no choice.
I do agree that we should strive to follow the commandments as perfectly as we can. But this can certainly happen along with making informed choices. It’s a part of the learning process.
Can the HG testify to something being true if it is not true?
What if you believed the HG had testified to you and you taught others and then you learned it was not true, would you contact those you taught and tell them you had been mistaken?
Honestly, if an athiest knocked on my door, I’d let him in. I wouldn’t debate him either. I take all religions and non-religions into consideration. I’m not this noble, upstanding guy but I do repsect people’s beliefs, ya know?
Oooooh! I get SO ANNOYED when church members resort to using the word of wisdom as the prime example of why our religion is superior!
As Rick pointed out, plenty of non-LDS people can, and do live a healthy lifestyle.
Oh I just hate it when Mormons use the WOW as the main identifier of their religion! Sometimes is seems like you can be a dishonest scumbag, and never preform any acts of service or charity, but if you keep the WOW your a good Mormon right?
In fact I think some people think your better off committing adultry than having a smoke. Oh….brother!
I decided a while ago that I will be walking out of the next Sunday School lesson about the WOW. It always ends up becoming a discussion about how much smarter and better we Mormons are than everybody else because we have the Word of Wisdom. GAG!
That was awsome!
That was vile!
I agree,
Awsome / vile in that it showed the rampant hypocrisy in our (LDS) attitude towards proselytizing.
JM, your last comment reminded me of an experience I had on my mission. Some investigators of ours had been invited to church by some Mormons, yet when they invited the Mormons to attend their Catholic church, the Mormons declined.
I thought the piece did a good job of displaying how social boundaries exist for a reason and it is, in general, bad form to intrude upon them.
I didn’t find it as entertaining as I did demonstrative.
When I knocked on someone’s door as a missionary, I was never doing it for the purpose of insulting them or goading them into a reaction. We treated everyone who said no with perfect respect. The smarmy fellow who introduces this footage starts out with a transparently hypocritical episode of protest-too-muchism (“Some people would say deliberate distortion and attacks X, Y and Z about you…but not me!). After that, he asks us to believe that knocking on a door is the rudest act one can perform in society. When someone knocks on my door and I’m not interested in what they offer, I can politely decline. So can he.
“he asks us to believe that knocking on a door is the rudest act one can perform in society.”
Or more specifically knocking on a door on a Saturday morning.
The assertion is just as ridiculous with “Saturday morning” thrown in.
“We treated everyone who said no with perfect respect.”
So I take it that you did NOT try and convert these people?
In some segments of society it’s considered rude to come to another’s door unannounced. Let alone, trying to tell someone that their current faith is incorrect and they should change or risk eternal consequences…
For a large contingent of people in the world, sleeping in on a Saturday is commonplace.
I know for a fact that missionaries do not ring once then walk away. They will often ring the bell several times. This is both annoying and rude.
No, rick, I didn’t try to convert people who turned me away. The point of knocking on doors is to find the ones who are interested, not to pester those who aren’t.
Thank you for sharing your extensive knowledge of universal truths about all missionaries.
The JW’s came to my door and I was polite to them. A counselor from YM’s knocked on my door and said he was assigned to be my HT’er and I was polite to him while I told him I had no interest in being HT by him or anyone else.
The Bishop called last Sunday (on the phone during Sunday School time) and wanted to come see our family and I was polite to him and said no. 2nd time in 50 years a Bishop wanted to come to my home for a visit. He was too busy to say welcome to the ward 4 months ago but he can make time for me when tithing settlement arrives. Too bad I decided to not attend the LDS Church any longer.
Why do you need to be rude to someone is beyond me. If you want to follow Christ, then be nice. You do not have to be rude just because they have a different view than you do. Are you rude at work? If not then be nice to JW’s or mormons who no longer attend or anyone.
My 2 cents
“No, rick, I didn’t try to convert people who turned me away.”
By the time you got to the ‘who turned me away’ part, you had already been annoying. Do you understand the distinction?
These people had to stop whatever they were doing (let’s hope it wasn’t sleeping), go to the door, hear your sales pitch and then find some way to disengage from the encounter.
If people want to know about the church, there are plenty of ways to do so. The point was that going to someone’s door to convert them is annoying to the occupants of the dwelling; especially on a Saturday before noon.
If you think that having a person knock on your door to make an offer is annoying, then you just aren’t being reasonable. And it’s certainly not as annoyiong as the intentional provocation that this man was engaged in.
I didn’t make a “sales pitch.” I told them who I was and that we would like to share a message. They could—and nearly always did—say no without difficulty. If we adopt the position that no one should ever be able to approach or speak to another person without prior approval, then what will we do to our society? People can talk. People can offer to present ideas. Others can accept or refuse. No one’s hurt, and no one really has a right to be annoyed about it, unless they’re being beliegerently hectored.
(In my first paragraph above, I meant to say “rude” rather than “annoying”—both times.)
Kim, I’ve been thinking through what you said in #4, and I really can’t see what was so bad. The Catholics were invited; that means they were free to accept or decline. The LDS family that invited them had no business being offended if they did decline. There would have been nothing impolite about declining. The same was true when the Catholic family invited the LDS family. They had a perfect right to decline, and doing so isn’t impolite.
Because they had no reason to decline. It’s not like they had something else to do. This was a popular scenario in Utah (or at least in the areas where I served). They were being hypocrites and were only interested in baptising someone. In these instances, there was never a desire to build a lasting relationship.
I will only be your friend if you join my church type of thing?
Seems kinda shallow and phoney.
“…then you just aren’t being reasonable”
Which is my right in both your country and mine.
Regardless of whether or not YOU believe it’s unreasonable to have to be bothered by people ringing your buzzer, there are hundreds of thousands of people who would disagree. This fellow with the video is just one of them.
It’s about boundaries, and I think the mishies often over-step them.
Sales people have to be a little pushy if they are going to get anyone to listen to their story.
With that said, it is unnecessary to rude. What I find interesting however, is when LDS are rude to those of other faiths.
I was talking with a neighbor and he was talking about how he would not vote for Mit Romney because he was LDS. I wondered if he had insulted me at the same time since he knew I used to attend.
He caught he mistake but the harm was already done. Should I have insulted him back?
I know for a fact that this religion is based on lies. After I married a Mormon, I studied the church doctorine and theology after expressing a desire to convert. It horrified me. My husband left not long after doing the research himself, especially after learning the church never condemned polygamy. They just stopped practicing it after 1890 when Utah became a state. (I have more respect for the fundamentalist Mormons, because they follow the original teachings of Jeseph Smith.)
Oh, and my favorite, the curse of the Indians, whose skin were turned red as eternal punishment. The book of Mormon itself says the religion is bogus.
While people who convert to this “religion” based on testimony. I base mine on fact. That is why I am not Mormon
This last comment is not Sally, my mother in law. This is another Sally. My mother in law has a strong, dedicated testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
Sally said: “I know for a fact that this religion is based on lies.”
Do you know of a religion that is not based on lies? Perhaps a better word would be mistruths.
It is interesting that when a person attacks a religion like LDS, they often do not have anything more than some vague response as an alternative option to the religion they just attacked.
“It is interesting that when a person attacks a religion…”
This is the blind spot of the believer.
Very few are those whose scrutiny is as intense when observing their own faith as other beliefs.
To the Sally who made the post about not being Mormon. The reason you have not continued in this religion is simply, no testimony can be gained by pure fact alone. It is through, and only by, the Holy Spirit confirming a witness to us that we can know the truth of this Gospel – no amount of fact will ever prove it’s truth – because fact is not perfect, anti-mormons can twist things and change things and make it sound bad. Check Moroni 10:3-5, it’s a famous scripture, I’m sure you know it.
I’m just about to head on my mission, and I’m sure I’ll have plenty of people be rude and nasty to me – that’s life. And I’d agree with it’s a I-can’t-be-bothered thing – who of us are really polite and have great conversations with telemarketers? Not me.
Unfortunatley for them, they’re the ones rejecting this sacred and important message that brings so much happiness into people’s lives. I was lucky to find it at age 16.
Ref comment 4 by Kim.
I think this is purely down to the individuals. I was once tracting with missionaries, on a street, which was also being tracted by JWs. They handed us a leaflet and we gladly took it – purely so as not to offend them. But when offered an LDS pass along card they simply replied, “don’t think so, we already have the truth”.
This is their belief, so fair enough. But they weren’t rude about it – and neither should we be if we turn down the chance to attend a Catholic sermon – but we shouldn’t get upset if they then don’t come to our Sacrament Meetings.
ldsuk87 said: “I was lucky to find it at age 16.”
I’m glad you found something that solves your needs at such an early age.
You wrote “It is through, and only by, the Holy Spirit confirming a witness to us that we can know the truth of this Gospel – no amount of fact will ever prove it’s truth – because fact is not perfect”
Is it possible to believe that the Holy Spirit did testify of something if it is not true? Would believing in something that is not true make it true or would your feelings have been wrong? If so, does it make the truth not the truth?
“I’m sure I’ll have plenty of people be rude and nasty to me”
You’ll also find plenty of people who think it’s rude and nasty to be bothered by people coming to their door and telling them what they believe is wrong.
Try and use some empathy on your mission…it’ll go a long way.
Who said I’ll be telling them it’s wrong. The first thing we’re told is never to degrade or put down anybody elses beliefs, if they choose to believe what they do, then that is their right to do so – I can only try and pursuade them otherwise – I would never outrightly say theyre wrong – I’d never get anywhere!
When you say ‘stop going to your church and start coming to ours’ you are implying that they are wrong.
No matter how you frame it, a missionaries job is to convice people that the way they are living is wrong and that the LDS way is right.
No, the LDS way is simply a better way. Many other lifestyles have many similarities to that of the LDS way. Many churches have many of the same beliefs. A missionary’s job is to offer a better alternative, the way in which, we can receive eternal life, not to put someone down because they’re wrong.
“the LDS way is simply a better way”
…and when you say things like this, prepare to have many, many doors closed in your face.
You may not be aware of it, but there is a belief, outside the church, that the LDS are an arrogant lot. Statements like yours don’t go a long way from removing that view.
Who said I’d come out and say that in a doorway.
For your own information, the average life expectancy of an LDS who lives the word of wisdom is approximately 11 years longer than that of somebody who smokes/drinks and various other stuff. Naturalyl there are exceptions, but as a general rule this is the case.
“Who said I’d come out and say that in a doorway”
So you’re planning on misleading potential converts. Are half-truths really the way you want to go when representing the Lord’s true church?
How much longer does the average LDS member live than a HEALTHY person who does not follow any other aspect of the LDS faith?
Studies have shown benefits to consuming alcohol in moderation. FYI
Most people agree that smoking is bad for you. This does not require a commandment from the Almighty to be apparent.
Comparing the worst case scenario to the LDS isn’t really bolstering your position much.
Oh I hate this alcohol scenario. Yes it is correct drinking red wine can provide you with less heart problems. Why!?! Is what you should ask yourself. It is the flavanoids in the grape juice and skin which is in the wine. Thus showing, those who drink pure dark (red grapes) grape juice obtain the health benefits without the disadvantages of the alcohol killing your brain cells! Hey! Good stuff that!
Who mentioned half truths anywhere? Not me that’s for one. I purely stated that there’s no point being RUDE at the door, as is the whole point of this thread … eventual explanation in further discussions, once the investigator understands a bit more would be perfectly acceptable.
How much longer does a HEALTHY person live than an LDS? Probably the same. How many non-LDS do you know who never: smoke, drink, live onlittle sleep, drink tea and coffee and the rest of the WoW.
How many LDS do you know who limit intake of meat? Not many.
The milk before meat scenario you describe is, at its’ heart, a sales method which systematically uses half-truths to get the target tom commit before knowing all of the facts.
The very fact that you show up at people’s doors, uninvited, will be considered rude by many. You should be prepared for that.
I don’t doubt that people will consider it rude. You’re definitely correct there, to be quite honest, I don’t particularly enjoy salesmen knocking my door.
I am there to find those few who are ready and prepared to accept the Gospel message. There are plenty of people out there waiting to be fuond.
Again you are correct, not many LDS people limit their intake of meat. 1) I don’t live in America or Canada where meat consumption is ridiculous anyway. and 2) Who says LDS people are perfect? We’re not. And food intake is a weakness of many
“Who says LDS people are perfect?”
This relates directly to your argument that strict observance of the WoW results in longer lives. Most LDS do not live the WoW and therefore statistics quoting longer life of the LDS are not really on point, that’s all.
“I am there to find those few who are ready and prepared to accept the Gospel message. There are plenty of people out there waiting to be found.”
I hope you’re going to South America, because that’s the only current mission field that matches your description.
“How many LDS do you know who limit intake of meat?”
Me. But ok, I am not many :) Go to Mormon Veg though and you will hear many who think everyone should be vegetarian.
I don’t only limit it, I don’t eat it because meat is gross.
ldsuk87, you would be surpirsed, not all Canadians and Americans eat hordes of meat. I lived in Ireland for a year many years ago and I was the only LDS vegetarian I knew.
Yes well it is a general rule. No statistic is 100% correct and full proof. You should realise this. You should also realise that this is merely a point to show that IF you live it then you can obtain this benefit. Nothing is guaranteed, you have to work at it to obtain it.
Actually I’m going to Germany … who in the last year have shown quite a statistical increase in members.
ldsuk87, I’d like a citation for that statistical increase, if you have it.
Most of the reading I’ve done recently has shown a decrease in religiousity in Western European countries over the last several years.
We are beginning to agree on several fronts. I am not saying the WoW is BAD, I’m just saying that the LDS do not have the market cornered on healthy practises.
I find plenty of good in religion in general, but not exclusively in religion. There are many ways of living a good life and not all of them involve religion.
I’m not saying all Canadians and Americans eat hordes — I simply am stating the statistics that Americans do eat a lot more than the rest of the world… its undenyable?
And yes, you’re quite right, there are actually a lot of Mormon vegetarians , which actually surprised me when I found out.
I do not have it to hand… but will more than gladly hunt it out for you, just not right now, it’s getting late here.
I’m glad we are finally agreeing. I’m saying LDS have cornered it, I’m saying what the LDS religion has layed out in the WoW does provide a healthier lifestyle – and if you follow this, whether you are religiou or not, you will be a healthier person. It’s just a shame we can’t just blindly follow it, it’s not that easy.
“It’s just a shame we can’t just blindly follow it”
You don’t mean to say that people SHOULD be blindly following it, do you?
It is a shame we can’t, can’t being another word for “unable to”. We are unable to follow it blindly because we are imperfect.
I don’t mean to say we SHOULDbe blindly following it. What I mean is, we should be striving to live it as best as we can.
You shouldn’t change my words, I’m a linguist, and I choose my words because I mean them.
So in a perfect world, with perfect people we should be blindly following the words in a book?
That doesn’t make any sense. If we were meant to follow blindly, God would not have given us minds with the capacity to reason or hearts with the capacity to feel.
ldsuk87
Remember this, the reason Satan’s plan was rejected was because he wanted exactly that, for us to follow blindly, to have no choice.
I do agree that we should strive to follow the commandments as perfectly as we can. But this can certainly happen along with making informed choices. It’s a part of the learning process.
Can the HG testify to something being true if it is not true?
What if you believed the HG had testified to you and you taught others and then you learned it was not true, would you contact those you taught and tell them you had been mistaken?
Honestly, if an athiest knocked on my door, I’d let him in. I wouldn’t debate him either. I take all religions and non-religions into consideration. I’m not this noble, upstanding guy but I do repsect people’s beliefs, ya know?
Oooooh! I get SO ANNOYED when church members resort to using the word of wisdom as the prime example of why our religion is superior!
As Rick pointed out, plenty of non-LDS people can, and do live a healthy lifestyle.
Oh I just hate it when Mormons use the WOW as the main identifier of their religion! Sometimes is seems like you can be a dishonest scumbag, and never preform any acts of service or charity, but if you keep the WOW your a good Mormon right?
In fact I think some people think your better off committing adultry than having a smoke. Oh….brother!
I decided a while ago that I will be walking out of the next Sunday School lesson about the WOW. It always ends up becoming a discussion about how much smarter and better we Mormons are than everybody else because we have the Word of Wisdom. GAG!