Queer Mormon poet with radical political views. I have been married 27 years, and we have 6 children. Sunday school president. Served in the Utah Provo Mission.
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87 thoughts on “Richard Dutcher leaves the Church”
This further solidifies my theory that one cannot be an artist (not including the kind that cater to consumerism) and an active Mormon at the same time.
Figures. But then again, this is the same person who brought us Legacy.
Wait to go with all the strawmen, Keith.
If being an artist means that I have to degrade others and focus on the negative aspects of life in order to move someone then I think I’ll be a farmer. It reminds me of comedy, such as Bill Cosby and Eddie Murphy. Bill Cosby could make you laugh without having to visit the sewer in search for the material that Eddie Murphy might have used. In the same way, Dutcher prefers to go to the sewer and focus on the rats and various other sewer artifacts rather than challenging himself to make a good movie that can move people without having to use waste. Anyone can take crap from the sewer and put it together and call it “Art,” but only a real artist can take life’s realities and put it into an art form that can move an audience without needing to inject them with “Art” heroine for the same reaction. That’s a challenge, and one only a real artist can actually create.
Who says the purpose of creating art (or specifically film) is to move people?
It’s a good thing that your perspective is only a theory and not really a fact.
So Dutcher decides that Mormonism is not for him and that he had some eye opening experience, so what. He started a genre that for the most part really looked at Mormon life and the way it is portrayed. I left the church for a while also and I still have problems accepting what some of its leaders say.
Art is a gift and talent is what brings that gift to the surface, now if you work both, your not going to please everybody all the time. As an artist who would want to anyway. I had the privilage of knowing Richard as a kid and he could really crack you up. His sense of humor is evident in God’s Army.
We tag so many things and sometimes its confusing. He will not be out railing against the church, he said himself that “Its hard to say good bye to something you love.” I am not sure what made him do what he did and I don’t care. Would I like to see him come back, yeah if he wants. I won’t be disapointed one way or the other. Just stop trying to figure it all out. He will be the one to answer for his decisions as all of you reading this will for the choices you make. So let the man be
I had the chance to know Richard just a little bit while in college, and he’s a terrifically talented fellow. I hope he’ll be able to work out his testimony.
Wow, K Walker, you have me really astonished. Exactly what material from any of Dutcher’s films do you think comes from the sewer? I’ve liked every film I’ve seen from him, flaws and all.
From Comment #1, I assume that if you’re an artist who does cater to consumerism, as, for example, Michelangelo and Shakespeare did, then it’s still possible to be a faithful Latter-day Saint?
“I hope he’ll be able to work out his testimony.”
Maybe he already has.
I always find it interesting that most faithful LDS present a false dilemma when it comes to testimony. From their perspective, it seems that there are only two choices:
Working to become a God, full exaltation, etc…
Abandonment of the church, forsaking the gospel, turn anti-Mormon.
There are other options.
Perhaps some are content knowing they aren’t cut out for exaltation. Perhaps they don’t want to reach for the brass ring. Perhaps they are content with the ‘lowest level’ in the celestial kingdom.
Perhaps we need to leave all the “Richards” out there alone and let them find meaning in their own theology. Nobody is asking you to abandon your faith. Let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Sure seems that way, ltbugaf.
Re: Comments 12: I guess that puts those Mormon consumerist artists in good company, then.
Re: Comment 11: I hope neither you nor Richard will buy into the lie that some just “aren’t cut out for exaltation.” I hope you’ll consider the words of Henry Eyring:
I was in Boston. For a little nostalgia, I walked up to the front of the boarding house I was living in when I met Kathleen, who is now my wife. That was a long time ago, so I expected to find the house a little more dilapidated than it was, since I seem to be a little more dilapidated. But to our surprise, it was freshly painted and much renovated. A university has purchased it from the Sopers, the people who owned it and ran it as a boarding house.
The building was locked, so we couldn’t get in to see the back room on the top floor, which once was mine. Costs have changed, so this will be hard for you to believe, but this was the deal the Sopers gave me: My own large room and bath, furniture and sheets provided, maid service, six big breakfasts and five wonderful dinners a week, at the price of $21 a week. More than that, the meals were ample and prepared with such skill that we called our landlady with some affection, “Ma Soper.” Just talking about it with you makes me realize that I didn’t thank Mrs. Soper often enough, nor Mr. Soper and their daughter, since it must have been some burden to have twelve single men to dinner every week night.
Now, you aren’t tempted by that description of a boarding house, and neither am I. It could have the most spacious rooms, the best service, and the finest eleven men you could ever know as fellow boarders and we wouldn’t want to live there more than a short while. If it were beautiful beyond our power to imagine, we wouldn’t want to live there forever, single, if we have even the dimmest memory or the faintest vision of a family with beloved parents and children, like the one from which we came to this earth and the one which is our destiny to form and to live in forever. There is only one place where there will be families–the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. That is where we will want to be. (Henry B. Eyring, “The Family,” CES Fireside, November 5, 1995.)
The Celestial Kingdom is where we all belong. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is infinite and available for all of us. No one need miss out or decide it’s “not for him.” It is for him. It’s for all of us.
I have no idea what R.D. Thinks. Nor, did I say it’s what I think. However, the quote you posted by HBE only reflects his desires and probably the desires of many others. But to assume that it’s what everyone wants is naive.
Clearly 1/3 of the hosts of heaven decided it wasn’t for them. Indeed, there are those that aren’t cut out for it. That’s what this whole mortal probation is for… figuring where we belong in the eternities.
Just because the atonement is available to all, doesn’t mean that everyone will want it. If there is opposition in “ALL THINGS” then there will be those who feel the opposite to how you feel W.R.T. the celestial kingdom.
JM, what you are saying makes absolutely no sense.
If everyone else doesn’t want what I want, that just diminishes my wants.
And I was wanting them first which makes me more important than those other people who aren’t even wanting the right stuff in the first place.
Wait.
In retrospect, I think you got it all right.
=)
JM, your misapplication of Lehi’s words about opposition is as bad as your misapplicaton of Joseph Smith’s words about letting people worship how, where, or what they may.
Joseph Smith was as zealous about spreading the gospel through missionary work as any man in history. He didn’t think we should just leave people alone with their beliefs. He understood it was our duty to bring the truth to as many people as possible and influence them as much as we can, toward repentance and exaltation.
Lehi’s words about opposition in all things have nothing to do with your topic. They also have nothing to do with the topic people usually associate them with: The usefulness of adversity. He didn’t say, “There must needs be opposition in all things.” What he said was, “It must needs be that there is an opposition in all things. In other words, it is necessarily true that there is a great division of opposites in the universe: Righteousness is opposed to wickedness, joy to misery, and so forth. Lehi certainly isn’t saying that we need to achieve some sort of “balance” between the two. He isn’t saying that some people will achieve happiness by choosing some path other than the one that leads to happiness. Happiness can’t result from wickedness.
Yes, 1/3 of the host chose to rebel but they were wrong. They weren’t making the choice that was right for them. They were making the choice that led to eternal misery. It wasn’t because they “weren’t cut out for it.” They had the same potential to be happy as everyone else, and they made the wrong choice—the choice to be miserable. If there are people who actually desire to be miserable, then their minds are confused and blinded. People don’t want misery. They want happiness. They’re deceived into thinking that choices which squander the gift of Christ’s Atonement and lead them away from exaltation will give them happiness. They’re wrong, and they need to be put right.
“he didn’t think that we should just leave people alone with thier beliefs”
“their minds are confused and blinded”
“they are deceived into thinking that choices that lead them away from exaltation will give them happiness.”
“they’re wrong, and they need to be put right”
It is precisely these kind of comments that make me want to take my children and run as far away from the church as possible.
Why does someone have to be wrong?
Why the connection between happiness and belonging to the LDS church? I know a lot of very good non-members, who believe it or not, are happy, and content with their lives.
I think that there must be some truth to all religions, and that it is a personal thing. It is very insulting to tell someone else that their beliefs, or their perceptions of their beliefs, are wrong.
I have to agree with you dar. “They are wrong and need to be put right”. The last time I heard something like that I thought it sounded like a good idea but I couldn’t understand all of it because the person who was speaking, was speaking in GERMAN, this person went on to try and rid the world of certain race he didn’t like. So is the person who made this quote is a few steps from putting on the boots and marching through the streets proclaiming all other beliefs are wrong and those who believe them need to be “the need to be put right”. They may say the don’t intend to do something like that but let me tell you that is how it all starts.
I also know many people who are not members of the church who are happy and content. They may be searching for more but for the most part they are happy with their lives.
Members of the LDS church seem to think that once we find the truth that our lives will be full and that we will live happily ever after. This is far from the truth, our Father in Heaven gives us challenges in life to make us grow and be stronger. While some people are able to coast through life others are refined by the challenges they overcome.
There is truth in all religions partial truth and some people are comfortable with that. The spirit may touch them from time to time but eventually they may want more and then our Heavenly Father will bring the truth to them. I served a mission in Oklahoma (the buckle of the bible belt) and there were all kinds of religions that I came into contact with, all had some form of truth but not the whole truth.
I believe we have the same organization that Chirst establihsed here on earth and I know we are led by a prophet. I do not push my beliefs on anyone. There are people who are lost out there but those who believe in something else other then what I believe, I respect. If they want to know more about my beliefs I will share, I will also listen the them. I respect Richard Dutcher for his decision. it is a major one I can not tell him he is wrong and I do not know the circumstances around his decision. May the Lord watch over him and his family.
Rick,
You’re just too damn smart for me ;-) (always have been). I don’t get what you’re saying.
How does what I want add to or diminish from what you want?
ltbugaf,
I respect your point of view, even if I don’t agree with it.
Re: what lehi said. I’m just reading it at face value. Not re-interpreting it to suite my own needs. If he said that there needs to be an opposition in all things, then that would exclude nothing. Sounds pretty absolute to me. Sounds like for every right action there is the possibility of a wrong one. Sounds like for every person that would be happy in certain circumstances, there would be others that wouldn’t.
Regarding your view of proclaiming the gospel, there is a difference between preaching to those who don’t know and those who do. If someone has decided it isn’t for them, then so be it. Leave them alone. Let them worship how, where, or what they may.
I believe joseph was doing all he could to spread the gospel truth. I also believe he believed that personal freedoms and the right of the individual to choose was more important than anything else.
If he said that there needs to be an opposition in all things, then that would exclude nothing.
That’s the point: He didn’t say that there needs to be opposition in all things. He said “it must needs be that” (it must be true that) “there IS AN opposition in all things” (there exists a great division of all things into opposites). If that were not true, then everything would be a meaningless neutral. But it isn’t; there’s righteousness versus unrighteousness and so on. Lehi’s words show that there is a choice of happiness and a choice of unhappiniess, not that we have a varied menu of alternative roads to exaltation.
As long as you’re going to quote the Book of Mormon, you should consider these words:
And it came to pass that when Jesus had ended these sayings he said unto his disciples: Enter ye in at the strait gate; for strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it; but wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein, until the night cometh, wherein no man can work. (3 Nephi 27:33)
I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation. (3 Nephi 33:9)
As to the other comments, I know there are plenty of people not in the Church who lead happy and content lives. I’m not talking about that temporary happiness. I’m talking about eternal joy, which comes only from Eternal Life. I’m talking about the eternal misery that comes from knowing you have rejected Christ’s atonement and cut yourself off from Eternal Life. Turning your back on the Lord’s Church and the Lord’s Prophet doesn’t lead to Eternal Life. So I hope, very sincerely, that Richard will be able to work out the struggles he’s having with his testimony, and return, like Oliver Cowdery, to the path that does lead to Eternal Life.
I’m sorry you think that makes me a Nazi.
JM, I’ll change it up a bit and see if it gets any clearer.
If everyone else doesn’t want MY LOLLIPOP, that just diminishes the value of MY LOLLIPOP.
And I had MY LOLLIPOP first which makes me more important than those other people who don’t have LOLLIPOPS in the first place.
I’m trying to say that some people determine the value of their adherence to beliefs by how many people want to live that way and can’t; for whatever reason – can’t live up to the standards, are not interested, etc.
If these people see others who are not valuing the sacrifices, or adherences that they make, it can cause personal offense, or even cognitive dissonance in the individual when they ask themselves why others aren’t sharing their values. It can also manifest itself in a loss of identity or a foundering of faith.
I never thought of it like that rick. to me, all that matters is that I want a lollipop and how much I want one. I could care less how many other people want one or don’t. I guess it would only matter if I wanted to sell my lollipop. But I don’t, I want to eat it! :-)
But I agree that some people value things like how you describe.
‘ “there IS AN opposition in all things†(there exists a great division of all things into opposites).’
I won’t disagree with that. I think you are just limiting your selection set to include only polar opposites.
Rather than looking at available options as binary, I see it more like a spectrum.
If it were a binary choice, then you would have binary consequences (heaven and hell). But we don’t, we have a spectrum of eternal outcomes. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that although the ‘best’ outcome (highest level in CK) is most desirable and what the gospel targets in its preaching, not everyone is cut out for it and other options are available for them.
To me that makes sense and is consistent with the plan of salvation as we teach it in the church. It’s just that we don’t focus or target other outcomes, we target the top and build everything around that.
However, if people don’t want it, or reject it, then we allow them to freely choose that. We let them worship how, where, or what they may. We’re not stopping anyone from accepting the gospel as we preach it. Nor should we force them to accept it either. We present options and let them pick.
Or do you have a different take on it?
Oh, I don’t think you an Nazi, just maybe your blinders restrict your field of view a little more than what I would feel comfortable with.
Also, I agree that it would be sad to reject the gospel and regret it later on, saying ‘only if I would have chosen the other path’. That would indeed be hard.
However, I personally don’t believe exaltation to be a cake-walk. Although the scriptures talk about eternal joy and happiness, and many positive aspects of that life, there is also mentioned ‘Godly Sorrow’.
Again I believe the law of opposites comes into play. If God can feel indescribable joy from his creation, he can also feel indescribable suffering and pain. The weight of being God must be more than anything we can imagine. I know how I feel when something bad happens to my children. I hate seeing them in pain. I cannot imagine what it would be like to loose them and never be able to see them again. I cannot fathom one of my children killing his/her brother or sister.
Can you imagine that sorrow multiplied billions of times? Can you imagine how God must have felt watching Christ suffer?
So, what I am willing to consider is that not everyone is cut out for the ‘God Life’. I think in the church we probably focus on all the shiney, happy, fluffy, pink and gold colored good stuff about the CK, and ignore the rest. It is reasonable to assume that not everyone can handle the job, and that being the case, there is a place for them in the eternal scheme of things. And I don’t see that as being a bad thing. The ones who want the top will have to work for it and prove themselves. But it’s ok that some won’t want to.
So, lets pick on poor richard again. Let’s say that the path he has chosen isn’t for you. Well, it just might be what’s right for him. Who are we to hop on our pedistal and, with all manner of self-righteousness, shower him with our pity? Worry about your own beam before you pick on his mote. He has the guts to follow his own spiritual path. Perhaps we all should be more focused on ours instead of his.
“Who are we to hop on our pedistal and, with all manner of self-righteousness, shower him with our pity? “
I agree with this one hundred percent. One of the great things the Lord has given us is freedom to choose and everyone has this right to choose his or her path. And JM you said this exactly right, we need to worry about our own beams before anyone else’s motes. We can have our own opinions on what is right and wrong, but to to pity people who don’t believe as we do, well that just smacks of patronisation. I have enough to worry about with my own spirituality to worry over much about anyone else’s.
Fox River Carp,
You make some compelling arguments and provide some points for all to ponder.
K Walker,
I agree with your comparison between Eddie Murphy and Bill Cosby. However, from your characterization of Richard’s movie themes as coming from the sewer, I conclude that you have brown eyes (becuase you sound completely full of shit).
Re: Comment 23
Take a look at Lehi’s words in the rest of the verse:
If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
Lehi gives that list of opposites, and points out that if the universe were not so divided into opposites, it would have no purpose: everything would be a “compound in one” or in other words a huge conglomeration of neutrality:
Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.
And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.
But he universe isn’t a big conglomeration of neutrality. It’s organized into opposing forces. We aren’t just faced with an array of choices that are all equally valid. (“Hey, I’m not into the whole Son of Perdition thing, but whatever you think is right for you…”) There is a law and there is such a thing as sin. We don’t just choose what we like, we have to choose between right and wrong.
Lehi continues:
Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.
Thus Lehi explains that we have the choice between freedom and eternal life on the one hand, and misery on the other. What I find disturbing is that you seem to think the choice of misery and captivity is one that’s “right” for some people. I don’t think misery and captivity is “right” for anyone, and there’s no need for them to suffer it, when there is an infinite Atonement already made for them.
Thus, I disagree with Dar in comment 17. I can’t agree that no one is ever wrong about a religious belief. If there is truth, there is falsehood. If there is a plan of happiness, there is a plan of misery. They aren’t just alternatives to choose according to our tastes; one is better than the other.
Re: the “Nazi” comment. I should have been clearer about this. It wasn’t JM’s comment, but comment 18 that I was responding to in that section. Carp seems to think that if I believe someone is making a bad choice, I’m planning to throw him in a concentration camp and execute him. Nice try.
Who are we to hop on our pedistal and, with all manner of self-righteousness, shower him with our pity? Worry about your own beam before you pick on his mote.
I don’t think I showered Richard Dutcher with any self-righteous pity, or picked at any of his “motes.” All I did was wish him well: I hope he will find his way to happiness, and I believe with all my heart that the path to happiness—for him as well as me—is to find a stronger testimony and return to full fellowship in the Lord’s Church.
However, if people don’t want it, or reject it, then we allow them to freely choose that. We let them worship how, where, or what they may. We’re not stopping anyone from accepting the gospel as we preach it. Nor should we force them to accept it either. We present options and let them pick.
If you’re looking for someone to disagree with on this, then keep looking. I’ve never advocated forcing anyone to accept the gospel. All I’ve said is that there are right choices and wrong ones, and that I hope all of us will make mor right ones.
That right there is one of the greatest gifts God has given us, the freedom to choose. The rough part is accepting the consequences of our choice. This is what pisses me off about the church they are always saying things like: “He would make such a great member of the church” or “If only she would join, her life would be so much better”.
God forbid the man or woman who decides to take another direction, or make an unpopular choice. LDS people feel they have to prevent this from happening by trying to point out the error of their ways. I said this before. I don’t know what Richard is dealing with in regards to his belief in the church and for the most part I really don’t care. I have not asked nor will I, it is his own private affair between him and the Savior I hope he is able to work it out.
I still think the man did a lot for the LDS church in his story telling and introducing the church to a wider spectrum of people. Richard take care and if I don’t see you in this life I hope I see you in the next. I have a lot of great memories of my childhood and you and your brother are a part of them. God bless you and your family.
As for the Nazi comment, it must have really bothered that person, he keeps defending it, scripture and everything. Have you taken to the streets in your home town yet? What part of Provo do you live in. Calm down look at yourself……I must have hit a nerve. Actung Baby. (pop culture reference)
I bet you enjoy debating scripture and interpeting it to fit your certain belief and anyone who differs is WRONG well lets bust out the JACK BOOTS and get that march organized because by night fall if we do not have a certain amount of believers those who choose not to accept the message will be rounded up and forced to work for the ones who do. The streets will flow with the blood of the non believers. If we kill the non-believers maybe they can accept the gospel taught to them in spirit prison. MAY THE FORCE BE WITH US……
What a butt munch…….
That would be Achtung, Baby, not Actung.
Sorry Mary and thank you for the correction….it was late or early in the morning when I ranted.
No need to apologise.
funny
Carp: I don’t live in Provo, I’m not defending or promoting Naziism with scripture or by any other means, you’re just as wrong now as you were before, and you really need to stop thinking that every time someone believes there’s such a thing as a wrong belief, that person is planning to establish his will by totalitarian means. If you want to point a finger at someone who’s planning to “round up” nonbelievers and force them to do something, or to “kill the non-believers,” then I suggest you find someone who advocates that course.
(And what does living in Provo have to do with any of this? Or is Carp just perpetuating a bigoted stereotype about people who live there?)
Anyone who called Sen. McCarthy’s beliefs wrong was branded a Communist. Now, it looks like anyone who calls anyone’s beliefs wrong is to be branded as a jack-booted Nazi.
Apparently some people prefer to customize art as something that has to cater to consumerism or has to have “shock value” in order to be called art. Sticking a cross in a urine filled glass and calling it art doesn’t produce any thought in my mind except, “Wow I guess this guy hates Christ,” and then next, “I wonder how long it would take the acid in the urine to eat through the metal.” Truly profound — not. But that’s what some people consider art. In my opinion, the best art is that art which doesn’t have to shock me to have an affect on me, but has a profound effect because it was so subtle and caused me to think for more than a few seconds. Brigham City was probably the one movie RD created that actually did that for me. The rest of his shows contained every day things that happen in life and I don’t need to go to his show to know them. My family is full of the characters in his shows. Give me something I don’t already know! And for the record, I own three of RD’s shows, Brigham City, God’s Army and States of Grace — because, yes, it is a fact that not all Mormons are as RD prefers to describe them. We do think for ourselves, despite your stereotyping. I did the same thing when I was inactive because it made me feel better doing what I was doing if I kept telling myself that all the Mormons were judgmental jerks. The fact is — some are, some aren’t. It’s the same in any culture or religion — some are jerks, some aren’t, some hide their heads in the sand, some don’t. RD, in my opinion, is arrogant and it shows in his interview. I am related to a Hollywood producer. Trust me, the film industry is not all it’s cracked up to be. Hollywood is a landfill, and this is what RD is aspiring to. But like most of us rebels he will just have to find out for himself. Oh, and you’ve gotta love the comment made by carp, “That right there is one of the greatest gifts God has given us, the freedom to choose….This is what pisses me off about the church” (Hmmm, did the entire church actually say that? Or was it some of the people). Do all Catholics hate Jews because Mel Gibson does? “…anyone who differs is WRONG.” Touche What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. No one is arguing that RD has a right to choose. Most people are actually arguing in regards to his arrogance regarding the church as well as other filmmakers. Most people don’t care if RD leaves the church. I know I’m still going to eat my lunch. I have no ulcer over RD leaving. My argument is against his being arrogant, hypocritical and his allegation that unless you portray some “shocking” thing about life that you cannot influence people with your “art.” I prefer to leave a theater wanting to do something good for people, not thinking, “Wow, life sucks, let’s go jump off a cliff.” There have been plenty of filmmakers who have been able to leave you on a positive note without bringing in the trash. So go ahead and do your preferred art pieces RD, but maybe challenge yourself to make one that can influence people without showing them how pathetic we can all be sometimes.
KW,
Anyone who knows Richard knows that “arrogant” is not a word that captures who Richard is. He is a visionary. Does his work reflect some of the nastiness that is out there in the real world? Certainly. The World is a nasty place. Some movie characters rise above the nastiness, some do not. The same goes for real-life people. It is easy to sit back and arm-chair quarterback someone else’s practice of his or her craft. In fact, why don’t you write a compelling story, pound the pavement until you have put together the funding, and turn your story into a movie. Then edit it into a final product, and try to sell it commercially. Oh, and when your story comes to life on the screen, check the web for people pissed off enough to post comments characterizing you and your work in the most negative ways possible.
As for “leaving the theater feeling like jumping off a cliff,” the film Schindler’s List evoked feelings like that. I’m not comparing Brigham City to Schindler’s List, but the emotions I experienced from both were similar. However I felt after seeing SL, it was a compelling story that needed to be told – one that continues to need to be told, lest we forget exactly how nasty the World can be.
By the way, as one contributor astutely noticed earlier, Richard did not leave the church. He is no longer “practicing.” Some of us have actually left the church. I, for one, have absolutely no regrets for doing so. I came to believe that God, spirituality, and church are not necessarily connected. It is, I believe, possible to be deeply spiritual without walking into a brick and mortar structure several times each week. I get more satisfaction from helping my fellow man that I do attending a meeting.
I don’t pretend to speak for Richard, but suspect he feels similarly.
Fox River Carp
Are you CP from A, WI?
KW, I understand you to be saying that Richard’s movies portray Mormons as people who can’t think for themselves. I really don’t see that in any of the Dutcher films I’ve watched. If anything, I see the opposite. Can you explain what makes you think this?
“I came to believe that God, spirituality, and church are not necessarily connected. It is, I believe, possible to be deeply spiritual without walking into a brick and mortar structure several times each week.”
I wholeheartedly agree. Very well put.
Richard’s mother gave me the link for this convo. I have read it w/interest. The headline is erroneous. As a copy editor I can see how it pulls people into the story. As Glen said,
Richard did not leave the church. He is no longer “practicing.â€
Some people do stop attending church sometime in their life for one reason or another. My son said to me the other day that he would attend church, it’s just that he can’t stomach some of the people. The Pharisees are alive and well. The church is still true, even if those that people it are not perfect.
It depends on how you define “leave”, but I admit I worded it specifically to attract traffic. No different than the post on Tal Bachman.
Thx for the explanation. I do this to my editor all the time, question his use of verbiage in a headline. Your choice of “leave” certainly drew me in. :-) Of course, anything to do w/Richard Dutcher would draw me in, LOL
First off, I need to apologize for my comments about the people of Provo, it is a nice place and there are a lot of great people there. Then I apologize to you ltbugaf for my Nazi comments, I can be a little sarcastic at times. I guess I wonder at the whole Christianity thing. There are a lot of people who died because of that cross, because they refused to believe those that came to conquer their country. Isn’t that what the church is trying to do? convert the world? Isn’t that what we as Christians are waiting for? Our Lord to return and tell everyone who is not a member that they were wrong and the ground to open and swallow up the wicked.
The United States was founded on freedom of religion the right to worship in your own way. If you are a part of the dominant culture and you worship the way we do. Other then that you are wrong.
G. Dutcher decided that church was not for him so did Richard. I was excommunicated a few years ago and was able to return. I see the hypocracy in this religion and it sickens me the way some people preach one thing and hide the other things that they do. I see the cronyism and how they take care of one another when some one screws up. I never thought it would happen in the Lord’s church but it did and it goes on everywhere. I have seen them single a person out and drive them from the church through false accusations. I also agree with Rayni the people are not perfect but at times when those people are running the show its hard to believe the Lord would work like that.
It may be that Richard and Glen saw the same thing. I can not argue other peoples choices. again I apologize for my sarcasm and name calling.
Fox River Carp, that is exactly why my son won’t go to church, he sees the people that persecuted him.
I have seen them single a person out and drive them from the church through false accusations.
Yes, I have seen this time & again. My son, one of my best friends, I’m sure the list goes on.
I became inactive (left the church?) because of my son. But I came to realize that I was only hurting myself. The Pharisees & the persecutors could care less. They thrive & their perfect sons have earned Eagles & gone on missions, married in the temple. They will be judged by someone besides myself. I am responsible for my own salvation. One of the best ways to get back at someone is to live life well. I taught my son to the best of my knowledge. By coming back to the church, I am again working on my own salvation & the Lord has been kind enough to keep me working in the Primary w/the children (not the Pharisees). I spoke 3 times in one year in Sacrament meeting & one lady asked me if I was being called to repentance. I told her no, I was calling them to repentance, hehe. I cannot accept your apology because the sarcasm wasn’t directed at me. But I commend you for making the apology.
All I can say is Primary is the best.
One thing I learned long ago (ok, still learning) is that the people who think they are perfect, well, they are struggling too, in other ways or not. We don’t know everything that goes on in everyone’s life and no point in trying to figure it out.
The hypocrisy isn’t in the religion. It’s in the people, or some of them. But our own testimonies aren’t worth ditching for other individuals’ failings. Nor our own.
Hear! Hear! And yes, Primary is the best. Where will Christ come first? To the little children.
And Mary? Thx for
people who think they are perfect, well, they are struggling too, in other ways or not. We don’t know everything that goes on in everyone’s life
I more or less figured that out. :-) It’s nice to hear someone else say it though.
Rayni
Oh I know you did :)
It’s nice to know someone else who loves Primary as I do (oh and my mum in law, Sally feels the same way!! Unfortunately both of us are out of Primary right now, argh)
Ha, I was blacklisted by someone? Wow, apparently even amidst the discussion regarding Richard being an “artist” you don’t even get free speech, even when that means you didn’t cuss, you just expressed your opinion. Interesting.
This further solidifies my theory that one cannot be an artist (not including the kind that cater to consumerism) and an active Mormon at the same time.
Sigh.
See also:
http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/218036/
and
http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/218124/
Figures. But then again, this is the same person who brought us Legacy.
Wait to go with all the strawmen, Keith.
If being an artist means that I have to degrade others and focus on the negative aspects of life in order to move someone then I think I’ll be a farmer. It reminds me of comedy, such as Bill Cosby and Eddie Murphy. Bill Cosby could make you laugh without having to visit the sewer in search for the material that Eddie Murphy might have used. In the same way, Dutcher prefers to go to the sewer and focus on the rats and various other sewer artifacts rather than challenging himself to make a good movie that can move people without having to use waste. Anyone can take crap from the sewer and put it together and call it “Art,” but only a real artist can take life’s realities and put it into an art form that can move an audience without needing to inject them with “Art” heroine for the same reaction. That’s a challenge, and one only a real artist can actually create.
Who says the purpose of creating art (or specifically film) is to move people?
It’s a good thing that your perspective is only a theory and not really a fact.
So Dutcher decides that Mormonism is not for him and that he had some eye opening experience, so what. He started a genre that for the most part really looked at Mormon life and the way it is portrayed. I left the church for a while also and I still have problems accepting what some of its leaders say.
Art is a gift and talent is what brings that gift to the surface, now if you work both, your not going to please everybody all the time. As an artist who would want to anyway. I had the privilage of knowing Richard as a kid and he could really crack you up. His sense of humor is evident in God’s Army.
We tag so many things and sometimes its confusing. He will not be out railing against the church, he said himself that “Its hard to say good bye to something you love.” I am not sure what made him do what he did and I don’t care. Would I like to see him come back, yeah if he wants. I won’t be disapointed one way or the other. Just stop trying to figure it all out. He will be the one to answer for his decisions as all of you reading this will for the choices you make. So let the man be
I had the chance to know Richard just a little bit while in college, and he’s a terrifically talented fellow. I hope he’ll be able to work out his testimony.
Wow, K Walker, you have me really astonished. Exactly what material from any of Dutcher’s films do you think comes from the sewer? I’ve liked every film I’ve seen from him, flaws and all.
From Comment #1, I assume that if you’re an artist who does cater to consumerism, as, for example, Michelangelo and Shakespeare did, then it’s still possible to be a faithful Latter-day Saint?
Maybe he already has.
I always find it interesting that most faithful LDS present a false dilemma when it comes to testimony. From their perspective, it seems that there are only two choices:
There are other options.
Perhaps some are content knowing they aren’t cut out for exaltation. Perhaps they don’t want to reach for the brass ring. Perhaps they are content with the ‘lowest level’ in the celestial kingdom.
Perhaps we need to leave all the “Richards” out there alone and let them find meaning in their own theology. Nobody is asking you to abandon your faith. Let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Sure seems that way, ltbugaf.
Re: Comments 12: I guess that puts those Mormon consumerist artists in good company, then.
Re: Comment 11: I hope neither you nor Richard will buy into the lie that some just “aren’t cut out for exaltation.” I hope you’ll consider the words of Henry Eyring:
The Celestial Kingdom is where we all belong. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is infinite and available for all of us. No one need miss out or decide it’s “not for him.” It is for him. It’s for all of us.
I have no idea what R.D. Thinks. Nor, did I say it’s what I think. However, the quote you posted by HBE only reflects his desires and probably the desires of many others. But to assume that it’s what everyone wants is naive.
Clearly 1/3 of the hosts of heaven decided it wasn’t for them. Indeed, there are those that aren’t cut out for it. That’s what this whole mortal probation is for… figuring where we belong in the eternities.
Just because the atonement is available to all, doesn’t mean that everyone will want it. If there is opposition in “ALL THINGS” then there will be those who feel the opposite to how you feel W.R.T. the celestial kingdom.
JM, what you are saying makes absolutely no sense.
If everyone else doesn’t want what I want, that just diminishes my wants.
And I was wanting them first which makes me more important than those other people who aren’t even wanting the right stuff in the first place.
Wait.
In retrospect, I think you got it all right.
=)
JM, your misapplication of Lehi’s words about opposition is as bad as your misapplicaton of Joseph Smith’s words about letting people worship how, where, or what they may.
Joseph Smith was as zealous about spreading the gospel through missionary work as any man in history. He didn’t think we should just leave people alone with their beliefs. He understood it was our duty to bring the truth to as many people as possible and influence them as much as we can, toward repentance and exaltation.
Lehi’s words about opposition in all things have nothing to do with your topic. They also have nothing to do with the topic people usually associate them with: The usefulness of adversity. He didn’t say, “There must needs be opposition in all things.” What he said was, “It must needs be that there is an opposition in all things. In other words, it is necessarily true that there is a great division of opposites in the universe: Righteousness is opposed to wickedness, joy to misery, and so forth. Lehi certainly isn’t saying that we need to achieve some sort of “balance” between the two. He isn’t saying that some people will achieve happiness by choosing some path other than the one that leads to happiness. Happiness can’t result from wickedness.
Yes, 1/3 of the host chose to rebel but they were wrong. They weren’t making the choice that was right for them. They were making the choice that led to eternal misery. It wasn’t because they “weren’t cut out for it.” They had the same potential to be happy as everyone else, and they made the wrong choice—the choice to be miserable. If there are people who actually desire to be miserable, then their minds are confused and blinded. People don’t want misery. They want happiness. They’re deceived into thinking that choices which squander the gift of Christ’s Atonement and lead them away from exaltation will give them happiness. They’re wrong, and they need to be put right.
“he didn’t think that we should just leave people alone with thier beliefs”
“their minds are confused and blinded”
“they are deceived into thinking that choices that lead them away from exaltation will give them happiness.”
“they’re wrong, and they need to be put right”
It is precisely these kind of comments that make me want to take my children and run as far away from the church as possible.
Why does someone have to be wrong?
Why the connection between happiness and belonging to the LDS church? I know a lot of very good non-members, who believe it or not, are happy, and content with their lives.
I think that there must be some truth to all religions, and that it is a personal thing. It is very insulting to tell someone else that their beliefs, or their perceptions of their beliefs, are wrong.
I have to agree with you dar. “They are wrong and need to be put right”. The last time I heard something like that I thought it sounded like a good idea but I couldn’t understand all of it because the person who was speaking, was speaking in GERMAN, this person went on to try and rid the world of certain race he didn’t like. So is the person who made this quote is a few steps from putting on the boots and marching through the streets proclaiming all other beliefs are wrong and those who believe them need to be “the need to be put right”. They may say the don’t intend to do something like that but let me tell you that is how it all starts.
I also know many people who are not members of the church who are happy and content. They may be searching for more but for the most part they are happy with their lives.
Members of the LDS church seem to think that once we find the truth that our lives will be full and that we will live happily ever after. This is far from the truth, our Father in Heaven gives us challenges in life to make us grow and be stronger. While some people are able to coast through life others are refined by the challenges they overcome.
There is truth in all religions partial truth and some people are comfortable with that. The spirit may touch them from time to time but eventually they may want more and then our Heavenly Father will bring the truth to them. I served a mission in Oklahoma (the buckle of the bible belt) and there were all kinds of religions that I came into contact with, all had some form of truth but not the whole truth.
I believe we have the same organization that Chirst establihsed here on earth and I know we are led by a prophet. I do not push my beliefs on anyone. There are people who are lost out there but those who believe in something else other then what I believe, I respect. If they want to know more about my beliefs I will share, I will also listen the them. I respect Richard Dutcher for his decision. it is a major one I can not tell him he is wrong and I do not know the circumstances around his decision. May the Lord watch over him and his family.
Rick,
You’re just too damn smart for me ;-) (always have been). I don’t get what you’re saying.
How does what I want add to or diminish from what you want?
ltbugaf,
I respect your point of view, even if I don’t agree with it.
Re: what lehi said. I’m just reading it at face value. Not re-interpreting it to suite my own needs. If he said that there needs to be an opposition in all things, then that would exclude nothing. Sounds pretty absolute to me. Sounds like for every right action there is the possibility of a wrong one. Sounds like for every person that would be happy in certain circumstances, there would be others that wouldn’t.
Regarding your view of proclaiming the gospel, there is a difference between preaching to those who don’t know and those who do. If someone has decided it isn’t for them, then so be it. Leave them alone. Let them worship how, where, or what they may.
I believe joseph was doing all he could to spread the gospel truth. I also believe he believed that personal freedoms and the right of the individual to choose was more important than anything else.
That’s the point: He didn’t say that there needs to be opposition in all things. He said “it must needs be that” (it must be true that) “there IS AN opposition in all things” (there exists a great division of all things into opposites). If that were not true, then everything would be a meaningless neutral. But it isn’t; there’s righteousness versus unrighteousness and so on. Lehi’s words show that there is a choice of happiness and a choice of unhappiniess, not that we have a varied menu of alternative roads to exaltation.
As long as you’re going to quote the Book of Mormon, you should consider these words:
As to the other comments, I know there are plenty of people not in the Church who lead happy and content lives. I’m not talking about that temporary happiness. I’m talking about eternal joy, which comes only from Eternal Life. I’m talking about the eternal misery that comes from knowing you have rejected Christ’s atonement and cut yourself off from Eternal Life. Turning your back on the Lord’s Church and the Lord’s Prophet doesn’t lead to Eternal Life. So I hope, very sincerely, that Richard will be able to work out the struggles he’s having with his testimony, and return, like Oliver Cowdery, to the path that does lead to Eternal Life.
I’m sorry you think that makes me a Nazi.
JM, I’ll change it up a bit and see if it gets any clearer.
If everyone else doesn’t want MY LOLLIPOP, that just diminishes the value of MY LOLLIPOP.
And I had MY LOLLIPOP first which makes me more important than those other people who don’t have LOLLIPOPS in the first place.
I’m trying to say that some people determine the value of their adherence to beliefs by how many people want to live that way and can’t; for whatever reason – can’t live up to the standards, are not interested, etc.
If these people see others who are not valuing the sacrifices, or adherences that they make, it can cause personal offense, or even cognitive dissonance in the individual when they ask themselves why others aren’t sharing their values. It can also manifest itself in a loss of identity or a foundering of faith.
I never thought of it like that rick. to me, all that matters is that I want a lollipop and how much I want one. I could care less how many other people want one or don’t. I guess it would only matter if I wanted to sell my lollipop. But I don’t, I want to eat it! :-)
But I agree that some people value things like how you describe.
‘ “there IS AN opposition in all things†(there exists a great division of all things into opposites).’
I won’t disagree with that. I think you are just limiting your selection set to include only polar opposites.
Rather than looking at available options as binary, I see it more like a spectrum.
If it were a binary choice, then you would have binary consequences (heaven and hell). But we don’t, we have a spectrum of eternal outcomes. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that although the ‘best’ outcome (highest level in CK) is most desirable and what the gospel targets in its preaching, not everyone is cut out for it and other options are available for them.
To me that makes sense and is consistent with the plan of salvation as we teach it in the church. It’s just that we don’t focus or target other outcomes, we target the top and build everything around that.
However, if people don’t want it, or reject it, then we allow them to freely choose that. We let them worship how, where, or what they may. We’re not stopping anyone from accepting the gospel as we preach it. Nor should we force them to accept it either. We present options and let them pick.
Or do you have a different take on it?
Oh, I don’t think you an Nazi, just maybe your blinders restrict your field of view a little more than what I would feel comfortable with.
Also, I agree that it would be sad to reject the gospel and regret it later on, saying ‘only if I would have chosen the other path’. That would indeed be hard.
However, I personally don’t believe exaltation to be a cake-walk. Although the scriptures talk about eternal joy and happiness, and many positive aspects of that life, there is also mentioned ‘Godly Sorrow’.
Again I believe the law of opposites comes into play. If God can feel indescribable joy from his creation, he can also feel indescribable suffering and pain. The weight of being God must be more than anything we can imagine. I know how I feel when something bad happens to my children. I hate seeing them in pain. I cannot imagine what it would be like to loose them and never be able to see them again. I cannot fathom one of my children killing his/her brother or sister.
Can you imagine that sorrow multiplied billions of times? Can you imagine how God must have felt watching Christ suffer?
So, what I am willing to consider is that not everyone is cut out for the ‘God Life’. I think in the church we probably focus on all the shiney, happy, fluffy, pink and gold colored good stuff about the CK, and ignore the rest. It is reasonable to assume that not everyone can handle the job, and that being the case, there is a place for them in the eternal scheme of things. And I don’t see that as being a bad thing. The ones who want the top will have to work for it and prove themselves. But it’s ok that some won’t want to.
So, lets pick on poor richard again. Let’s say that the path he has chosen isn’t for you. Well, it just might be what’s right for him. Who are we to hop on our pedistal and, with all manner of self-righteousness, shower him with our pity? Worry about your own beam before you pick on his mote. He has the guts to follow his own spiritual path. Perhaps we all should be more focused on ours instead of his.
“Who are we to hop on our pedistal and, with all manner of self-righteousness, shower him with our pity? “
I agree with this one hundred percent. One of the great things the Lord has given us is freedom to choose and everyone has this right to choose his or her path. And JM you said this exactly right, we need to worry about our own beams before anyone else’s motes. We can have our own opinions on what is right and wrong, but to to pity people who don’t believe as we do, well that just smacks of patronisation. I have enough to worry about with my own spirituality to worry over much about anyone else’s.
Fox River Carp,
You make some compelling arguments and provide some points for all to ponder.
K Walker,
I agree with your comparison between Eddie Murphy and Bill Cosby. However, from your characterization of Richard’s movie themes as coming from the sewer, I conclude that you have brown eyes (becuase you sound completely full of shit).
Re: Comment 23
Take a look at Lehi’s words in the rest of the verse:
Lehi gives that list of opposites, and points out that if the universe were not so divided into opposites, it would have no purpose: everything would be a “compound in one” or in other words a huge conglomeration of neutrality:
But he universe isn’t a big conglomeration of neutrality. It’s organized into opposing forces. We aren’t just faced with an array of choices that are all equally valid. (“Hey, I’m not into the whole Son of Perdition thing, but whatever you think is right for you…”) There is a law and there is such a thing as sin. We don’t just choose what we like, we have to choose between right and wrong.
Lehi continues:
Thus Lehi explains that we have the choice between freedom and eternal life on the one hand, and misery on the other. What I find disturbing is that you seem to think the choice of misery and captivity is one that’s “right” for some people. I don’t think misery and captivity is “right” for anyone, and there’s no need for them to suffer it, when there is an infinite Atonement already made for them.
Thus, I disagree with Dar in comment 17. I can’t agree that no one is ever wrong about a religious belief. If there is truth, there is falsehood. If there is a plan of happiness, there is a plan of misery. They aren’t just alternatives to choose according to our tastes; one is better than the other.
Re: the “Nazi” comment. I should have been clearer about this. It wasn’t JM’s comment, but comment 18 that I was responding to in that section. Carp seems to think that if I believe someone is making a bad choice, I’m planning to throw him in a concentration camp and execute him. Nice try.
I don’t think I showered Richard Dutcher with any self-righteous pity, or picked at any of his “motes.” All I did was wish him well: I hope he will find his way to happiness, and I believe with all my heart that the path to happiness—for him as well as me—is to find a stronger testimony and return to full fellowship in the Lord’s Church.
If you’re looking for someone to disagree with on this, then keep looking. I’ve never advocated forcing anyone to accept the gospel. All I’ve said is that there are right choices and wrong ones, and that I hope all of us will make mor right ones.
That right there is one of the greatest gifts God has given us, the freedom to choose. The rough part is accepting the consequences of our choice. This is what pisses me off about the church they are always saying things like: “He would make such a great member of the church” or “If only she would join, her life would be so much better”.
God forbid the man or woman who decides to take another direction, or make an unpopular choice. LDS people feel they have to prevent this from happening by trying to point out the error of their ways. I said this before. I don’t know what Richard is dealing with in regards to his belief in the church and for the most part I really don’t care. I have not asked nor will I, it is his own private affair between him and the Savior I hope he is able to work it out.
I still think the man did a lot for the LDS church in his story telling and introducing the church to a wider spectrum of people. Richard take care and if I don’t see you in this life I hope I see you in the next. I have a lot of great memories of my childhood and you and your brother are a part of them. God bless you and your family.
As for the Nazi comment, it must have really bothered that person, he keeps defending it, scripture and everything. Have you taken to the streets in your home town yet? What part of Provo do you live in. Calm down look at yourself……I must have hit a nerve. Actung Baby. (pop culture reference)
I bet you enjoy debating scripture and interpeting it to fit your certain belief and anyone who differs is WRONG well lets bust out the JACK BOOTS and get that march organized because by night fall if we do not have a certain amount of believers those who choose not to accept the message will be rounded up and forced to work for the ones who do. The streets will flow with the blood of the non believers. If we kill the non-believers maybe they can accept the gospel taught to them in spirit prison. MAY THE FORCE BE WITH US……
What a butt munch…….
That would be Achtung, Baby, not Actung.
Sorry Mary and thank you for the correction….it was late or early in the morning when I ranted.
No need to apologise.
funny
Carp: I don’t live in Provo, I’m not defending or promoting Naziism with scripture or by any other means, you’re just as wrong now as you were before, and you really need to stop thinking that every time someone believes there’s such a thing as a wrong belief, that person is planning to establish his will by totalitarian means. If you want to point a finger at someone who’s planning to “round up” nonbelievers and force them to do something, or to “kill the non-believers,” then I suggest you find someone who advocates that course.
(And what does living in Provo have to do with any of this? Or is Carp just perpetuating a bigoted stereotype about people who live there?)
Anyone who called Sen. McCarthy’s beliefs wrong was branded a Communist. Now, it looks like anyone who calls anyone’s beliefs wrong is to be branded as a jack-booted Nazi.
Apparently some people prefer to customize art as something that has to cater to consumerism or has to have “shock value” in order to be called art. Sticking a cross in a urine filled glass and calling it art doesn’t produce any thought in my mind except, “Wow I guess this guy hates Christ,” and then next, “I wonder how long it would take the acid in the urine to eat through the metal.” Truly profound — not. But that’s what some people consider art. In my opinion, the best art is that art which doesn’t have to shock me to have an affect on me, but has a profound effect because it was so subtle and caused me to think for more than a few seconds. Brigham City was probably the one movie RD created that actually did that for me. The rest of his shows contained every day things that happen in life and I don’t need to go to his show to know them. My family is full of the characters in his shows. Give me something I don’t already know! And for the record, I own three of RD’s shows, Brigham City, God’s Army and States of Grace — because, yes, it is a fact that not all Mormons are as RD prefers to describe them. We do think for ourselves, despite your stereotyping. I did the same thing when I was inactive because it made me feel better doing what I was doing if I kept telling myself that all the Mormons were judgmental jerks. The fact is — some are, some aren’t. It’s the same in any culture or religion — some are jerks, some aren’t, some hide their heads in the sand, some don’t. RD, in my opinion, is arrogant and it shows in his interview. I am related to a Hollywood producer. Trust me, the film industry is not all it’s cracked up to be. Hollywood is a landfill, and this is what RD is aspiring to. But like most of us rebels he will just have to find out for himself. Oh, and you’ve gotta love the comment made by carp, “That right there is one of the greatest gifts God has given us, the freedom to choose….This is what pisses me off about the church” (Hmmm, did the entire church actually say that? Or was it some of the people). Do all Catholics hate Jews because Mel Gibson does? “…anyone who differs is WRONG.” Touche What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. No one is arguing that RD has a right to choose. Most people are actually arguing in regards to his arrogance regarding the church as well as other filmmakers. Most people don’t care if RD leaves the church. I know I’m still going to eat my lunch. I have no ulcer over RD leaving. My argument is against his being arrogant, hypocritical and his allegation that unless you portray some “shocking” thing about life that you cannot influence people with your “art.” I prefer to leave a theater wanting to do something good for people, not thinking, “Wow, life sucks, let’s go jump off a cliff.” There have been plenty of filmmakers who have been able to leave you on a positive note without bringing in the trash. So go ahead and do your preferred art pieces RD, but maybe challenge yourself to make one that can influence people without showing them how pathetic we can all be sometimes.
KW,
Anyone who knows Richard knows that “arrogant” is not a word that captures who Richard is. He is a visionary. Does his work reflect some of the nastiness that is out there in the real world? Certainly. The World is a nasty place. Some movie characters rise above the nastiness, some do not. The same goes for real-life people. It is easy to sit back and arm-chair quarterback someone else’s practice of his or her craft. In fact, why don’t you write a compelling story, pound the pavement until you have put together the funding, and turn your story into a movie. Then edit it into a final product, and try to sell it commercially. Oh, and when your story comes to life on the screen, check the web for people pissed off enough to post comments characterizing you and your work in the most negative ways possible.
As for “leaving the theater feeling like jumping off a cliff,” the film Schindler’s List evoked feelings like that. I’m not comparing Brigham City to Schindler’s List, but the emotions I experienced from both were similar. However I felt after seeing SL, it was a compelling story that needed to be told – one that continues to need to be told, lest we forget exactly how nasty the World can be.
By the way, as one contributor astutely noticed earlier, Richard did not leave the church. He is no longer “practicing.” Some of us have actually left the church. I, for one, have absolutely no regrets for doing so. I came to believe that God, spirituality, and church are not necessarily connected. It is, I believe, possible to be deeply spiritual without walking into a brick and mortar structure several times each week. I get more satisfaction from helping my fellow man that I do attending a meeting.
I don’t pretend to speak for Richard, but suspect he feels similarly.
Fox River Carp
Are you CP from A, WI?
KW, I understand you to be saying that Richard’s movies portray Mormons as people who can’t think for themselves. I really don’t see that in any of the Dutcher films I’ve watched. If anything, I see the opposite. Can you explain what makes you think this?
I wholeheartedly agree. Very well put.
Richard’s mother gave me the link for this convo. I have read it w/interest. The headline is erroneous. As a copy editor I can see how it pulls people into the story. As Glen said,
Some people do stop attending church sometime in their life for one reason or another. My son said to me the other day that he would attend church, it’s just that he can’t stomach some of the people. The Pharisees are alive and well. The church is still true, even if those that people it are not perfect.
It depends on how you define “leave”, but I admit I worded it specifically to attract traffic. No different than the post on Tal Bachman.
https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2004/08/13/tal-bachman-leaves-mormon-church/
Thx for the explanation. I do this to my editor all the time, question his use of verbiage in a headline. Your choice of “leave” certainly drew me in. :-) Of course, anything to do w/Richard Dutcher would draw me in, LOL
First off, I need to apologize for my comments about the people of Provo, it is a nice place and there are a lot of great people there. Then I apologize to you ltbugaf for my Nazi comments, I can be a little sarcastic at times. I guess I wonder at the whole Christianity thing. There are a lot of people who died because of that cross, because they refused to believe those that came to conquer their country. Isn’t that what the church is trying to do? convert the world? Isn’t that what we as Christians are waiting for? Our Lord to return and tell everyone who is not a member that they were wrong and the ground to open and swallow up the wicked.
The United States was founded on freedom of religion the right to worship in your own way. If you are a part of the dominant culture and you worship the way we do. Other then that you are wrong.
G. Dutcher decided that church was not for him so did Richard. I was excommunicated a few years ago and was able to return. I see the hypocracy in this religion and it sickens me the way some people preach one thing and hide the other things that they do. I see the cronyism and how they take care of one another when some one screws up. I never thought it would happen in the Lord’s church but it did and it goes on everywhere. I have seen them single a person out and drive them from the church through false accusations. I also agree with Rayni the people are not perfect but at times when those people are running the show its hard to believe the Lord would work like that.
It may be that Richard and Glen saw the same thing. I can not argue other peoples choices. again I apologize for my sarcasm and name calling.
Fox River Carp, that is exactly why my son won’t go to church, he sees the people that persecuted him.
Yes, I have seen this time & again. My son, one of my best friends, I’m sure the list goes on.
I became inactive (left the church?) because of my son. But I came to realize that I was only hurting myself. The Pharisees & the persecutors could care less. They thrive & their perfect sons have earned Eagles & gone on missions, married in the temple. They will be judged by someone besides myself. I am responsible for my own salvation. One of the best ways to get back at someone is to live life well. I taught my son to the best of my knowledge. By coming back to the church, I am again working on my own salvation & the Lord has been kind enough to keep me working in the Primary w/the children (not the Pharisees). I spoke 3 times in one year in Sacrament meeting & one lady asked me if I was being called to repentance. I told her no, I was calling them to repentance, hehe. I cannot accept your apology because the sarcasm wasn’t directed at me. But I commend you for making the apology.
All I can say is Primary is the best.
One thing I learned long ago (ok, still learning) is that the people who think they are perfect, well, they are struggling too, in other ways or not. We don’t know everything that goes on in everyone’s life and no point in trying to figure it out.
The hypocrisy isn’t in the religion. It’s in the people, or some of them. But our own testimonies aren’t worth ditching for other individuals’ failings. Nor our own.
Hear! Hear! And yes, Primary is the best. Where will Christ come first? To the little children.
And Mary? Thx for
I more or less figured that out. :-) It’s nice to hear someone else say it though.
Rayni
Oh I know you did :)
It’s nice to know someone else who loves Primary as I do (oh and my mum in law, Sally feels the same way!! Unfortunately both of us are out of Primary right now, argh)
Ha, I was blacklisted by someone? Wow, apparently even amidst the discussion regarding Richard being an “artist” you don’t even get free speech, even when that means you didn’t cuss, you just expressed your opinion. Interesting.
Blacklisted?